40 replies to this topic

[BSLChrisStoner]

BSL: Ravens Leave Cincinnati 2-0; Quick Takes

https://baltimorespo...-0-quick-takes/

[Biggsy]

A lot of positives. Lamar looked good running and throwing. Didn't force bad passes. Hit on some big time throws downfield. Made some massive plays with his legs. Hill and Edwards both looked good. Would prefer more Edwards. But I'm fine with Hill if the argument is his pass pro and not wanting to tip off your playcall. WR room looks really good. Flowers, Agholor, Bateman and Duvernay all look good. And Andrews looked like Andrews. But the biggest positive for the Ravens was the offensive line. A week after a borderline terrible performance, they turned in a phenomenal performance. And that without their two best offensive lineman. Mekari and Mustipher stepped up big time.

Outside of some personnel choice is short yardage (using Hill instead of Edwards) I really don't have many complaints at all on offense.

Defensively, really not many negatives either. I think we were helped by Burrow not being himself. Bengals barely tried to go downfield. They were relying heavily on short passes all day. And for the most part, the Ravens stepped up and made the tackles. Hamilton may have had the tackle of the day on Irv Smith. If he misses that tackle, Smith probably has a quick TD.

Have to give a lot of credit to Macdonald. He has Stephens, Darby and Washington has his CB's. And he managed to contain Chase, Higgins and Boyd.

The pass rush didn't have much of a chance with Cincy getting rid of the ball in under 2 seconds, but when Burrow was forced to hold it, they generated some decent pressure. Clowney, for as much as a lot of people hated the signing, has been extremely good for us so far. Roquan had been Roquan. And having Pierce in the middle has been huge. (pun intended)

Overall, not many negatives today. We won a game that most of us had written off as a loss when the schedule came out. Solid division win.

If this is the Monken offense, I'm pretty happy.

[hallas]

For all the complaining about Lamar's deep ball, one thing that I've been thinking about is, why was he always 3-5 yards long?  If he's missing almost exactly the same amount every time, it's almost like he's aiming in the wrong place and he's hitting the spot he's throwing to.  I'd expect someone who's really wild to miss short, long, left, and right almost equally.  He was long with frightening consistency.  That makes me wonder if Roman was the problem.  Why wouldn't Lamar figure out a way to lead his receivers appropriately?  He can consistently throw it exactly 5 yards too long and with not enough loft, why can't he learn how to throw it 5 yards shorter with a bit more arc?  It didn't jive with me that he'd miss in pretty much the same spot almost every time.

 

 

Fast forward to this year, he hits a beautiful ball to Flowers, he's just a hair long on the balls to Agholor and Flowers, and he throws a perfect ball to Duvernay, who gets tangled up on a play that could have been a DPI.  And then there was last week, where he threw a beautiful ball to OBJ, and he threw another nice ball that ended being a 22 yard DPI.  I wonder if the accuracy and repeatability have been there for longer than we think, but he just had bad instruction on deep balls.

[CantonJester]

For all the complaining about Lamar's deep ball, one thing that I've been thinking about is, why was he always 3-5 yards long?  If he's missing almost exactly the same amount every time, it's almost like he's aiming in the wrong place and he's hitting the spot he's throwing to.  I'd expect someone who's really wild to miss short, long, left, and right almost equally.  He was long with frightening consistency.  That makes me wonder if Roman was the problem.  Why wouldn't Lamar figure out a way to lead his receivers appropriately?  He can consistently throw it exactly 5 yards too long and with not enough loft, why can't he learn how to throw it 5 yards shorter with a bit more arc?  It didn't jive with me that he'd miss in pretty much the same spot almost every time.

 

 

Fast forward to this year, he hits a beautiful ball to Flowers, he's just a hair long on the balls to Agholor and Flowers, and he throws a perfect ball to Duvernay, who gets tangled up on a play that could have been a DPI.  And then there was last week, where he threw a beautiful ball to OBJ, and he threw another nice ball that ended being a 22 yard DPI.  I wonder if the accuracy and repeatability have been there for longer than we think, but he just had bad instruction on deep balls.

 

It's why he slid to the end of the first round. 

[cprenegade]

I don't think it was Greg Roman's fault that Lamar Jackson has been inconsistent throwing deep balls.  He was that way in college, can't speak to high school.  That is simply who Lamar is.  He will make the beautiful throw like he did today to Flowers, and he will miss open receivers downfield by 5 yards or more.  That is simply who he is.  I just don't think he is ever going to be a guy who can consistently put the ball on the money on deep throws.  He makes up for those deficiencies with his running ability.  

[BaltBird 24]

Offense was such a better product this week. The Houston game, despite the win, left a very bad taste.

Can't wait to see how these guys look a month from now, assuming the major pieces stay healthy.

[hallas]

It's why he slid to the end of the first round. 

 

I'm not feeling this as a legitimate reason, unless people in need of a QB were ignoring his production and looking at his weird mechanics.  People had perceptions of bad accuracy, sure, but then you'd have to ask why Josh Allen gets drafted at 7 with a 56% completion rate and 6.7 yards per attempt.  It's certainly not because Lamar had weapons around him - he's the only skill position player his junior year that's playing in the NFL.

[hallas]

I don't think it was Greg Roman's fault that Lamar Jackson has been inconsistent throwing deep balls.  He was that way in college, can't speak to high school.  That is simply who Lamar is.  He will make the beautiful throw like he did today to Flowers, and he will miss open receivers downfield by 5 yards or more.  That is simply who he is.  I just don't think he is ever going to be a guy who can consistently put the ball on the money on deep throws.  He makes up for those deficiencies with his running ability.  

 

He hasn't missed by much so far.  I went back to look, today he had 2 deep shots to Flowers, 1 to Agholor, and 1 to Duvernay.  He overthrew Flowers and Agholor by like 2 feet (but they were both decently good tries) he was money to Flowers on that bomb, who made that great catch, and he was money to Duvernay who almost made the catch (borderline DPI probably didn't help.  Not crying about the no-call but there was contact.)  It's not strictly a deep shot but his touch was also money on the Agholor touchdown, which was 18 air yards but a similar floater on a go route that he would overthrow by 5 yards last year.

 

Last week he was money on a 20 yard sideline ball to Flowers, and money on that 30 yard shot to OBJ.  He had a deep middle shot to OBJ that OBJ drew a PI on that was a gift, and an (IMO) good throw down the right sideline that OBJ drew DPI again.

 

Maybe it's just 2 good days at the office.  If something changes, I'll be happy to revisit this, but the fact that he consistently missed in the same direction by a very similar amount last year tells me that his inconsistency may not have been the problem, and faulty timing/instruction/coordination with receivers may have been to blame.  He sustained an entire season throwing like this (2019.)  So he has it in him.  It's just a matter of figuring out how to unlock that again IMO.  I refuse to believe he just lost that skill.

[Biggsy]

It's why he slid to the end of the first round.

That's not why he slid. Well, part of it. But people legitimately thought this kid couldn't throw a football. He slid because of a lot of poorly researched presumptions about running, black QB's coming out of college.

[Ravens2006]

For what it's worth, I'd rather a QB miss long on deep balls than short. As improved as we think the Ravens receiving corps is in theory, we still don't have any of those giant physical targets that can fight through and out jump 2 or 3 DBs to high point a ball in traffic consistently.

And again, I'll gladly take 47-16 and other strengths over a 33-30 QB who can throw a "better" deep ball.

[bmore_ken]

That's not why he slid. Well, part of it. But people legitimately thought this kid couldn't throw a football. He slid because of a lot of poorly researched presumptions about running, black QB's coming out of college.

Yep

[Mike in STL]

That's not why he slid. Well, part of it. But people legitimately thought this kid couldn't throw a football. He slid because of a lot of poorly researched presumptions about running, black QB's coming out of college.

So just 7 shorts years after Cam Newton goes number 1 overall, later wins an MVP and goes to a Super Bowl, teams decided black guys can't play QB? (Or however you want to phrase it).

 

I don't buy it. Other than one talking head who said he should convert to RB. 

 

Beginning of that season Rosen and Darnold were presumed to go #1 and #2 in some order. Darnold was supposed to overcome his high turnover rate, and there were questions about Rosen's coachability. Baker was a wild card, and the Browns did the Browns thing. Allen grew his stock his senior year, with some big plays in some bad weather in Wyoming (perfect fit in Buffalo) and LJ after winning the Heisman wasn't in the running again and was dinged for having a real low completion percentage, but without the context of having receivers with the highest drop% in the NCAA. LJ didn't really "slip" like Aaron Rodgers slipped. 

[NewMarketSean]

Gus Edwards looked great. He should be the main guy with Hill as the 3rd down guy.

[BSLChrisStoner]

That's not why he slid. Well, part of it. But people legitimately thought this kid couldn't throw a football. He slid because of a lot of poorly researched presumptions about running, black QB's coming out of college.

I think people didn't think he could be accurate enough, but I think the real prejudice Jackson faced was the old guard NFL not buying into spread and run college offenses.

 

And what we've seen since then is NFL teams are doing a better job of not pigeonholing guys and saying you all have to do x to be successful. 

 

The reasons I wanted Jackson in that draft were because:  1) Rookie QB deal, and the belief you could put together a deeper roster with him, 2) Believing he would give the offense multiple ways to be successful, 3) Liking his arm talent.  4) Loving his will to win, and all the comments you heard about his on-field intelligence. 5) And Mike's point above about the drops his WR's had, I remember making that point at the time too.

 

I never understood anyone that watches Jackson, and doesn't see that he can fire the ball. He's got a very live arm. 

 

Now I didn't see him becoming MVP Year 2.

And I wasn't sure he'd ever get his footwork consistent enough to be a guy that completed 65% of his passes...  but nobody could look at him and deny the arm. 

 

 

Re: Polian and the move to RB comment

 

I get why some would think that was biased. 
I really think the bias there was not skin color... but the bias of being a guy that had QB's like Kelly, and Manning.  Statues. Prototypical drop back passers. Big guys.

 

What Polian should have saw imo was not only the talent Jackson has with the ball in his hands, not only the arm talent, but the will Jackson has to be as good as he can be. He's a leader. A winner. He has the intangibles you want. 

The most important thing with Coaching is utilizing the strengths of the players you have, and putting them in the best positions to succeed.  

I was ready to move on from Jackson before the extension, and try and get Richardson or Stroud. And I still think if you could have moved up to a position to get either, that the Ravens could have had a very viable path with either the next few years. 

But as I said once the extension was done, the decision was made, and I was glad to know Jackson would be a Raven going forward.

Each week he manages to be on the field, the Ravens have a great chance of winning that game. 

He really controlled the game yesterday.  If he puts up that performance most weeks, the Ravens are going to win a lot of games this year.

 

 

[Ravens2006]

...Each week he manages to be on the field, the Ravens have a great chance of winning that game...

 

Yep, that's pretty much been the reality of him since his first start.  

[Mike B]

A lot of positives. Lamar looked good running and throwing. Didn't force bad passes. Hit on some big time throws downfield. Made some massive plays with his legs. Hill and Edwards both looked good. Would prefer more Edwards. But I'm fine with Hill if the argument is his pass pro and not wanting to tip off your playcall. WR room looks really good. Flowers, Agholor, Bateman and Duvernay all look good. And Andrews looked like Andrews. But the biggest positive for the Ravens was the offensive line. A week after a borderline terrible performance, they turned in a phenomenal performance. And that without their two best offensive lineman. Mekari and Mustipher stepped up big time.

Outside of some personnel choice is short yardage (using Hill instead of Edwards) I really don't have many complaints at all on offense.

Defensively, really not many negatives either. I think we were helped by Burrow not being himself. Bengals barely tried to go downfield. They were relying heavily on short passes all day. And for the most part, the Ravens stepped up and made the tackles. Hamilton may have had the tackle of the day on Irv Smith. If he misses that tackle, Smith probably has a quick TD.

Have to give a lot of credit to Macdonald. He has Stephens, Darby and Washington has his CB's. And he managed to contain Chase, Higgins and Boyd.

The pass rush didn't have much of a chance with Cincy getting rid of the ball in under 2 seconds, but when Burrow was forced to hold it, they generated some decent pressure. Clowney, for as much as a lot of people hated the signing, has been extremely good for us so far. Roquan had been Roquan. And having Pierce in the middle has been huge. (pun intended)

Overall, not many negatives today. We won a game that most of us had written off as a loss when the schedule came out. Solid division win.

If this is the Monken offense, I'm pretty happy.

I think by week 5 or 6, if healthy, you are going to be liking this offense even more.

I thought after the Texans game, the Ravens treated it like a preseason game for the regulars and played it very close to the vest.  We started seeing the real Monken offense yesterday.

[Mike B]

I think the Ravens receiver group is good.  Agholor looks like he can really help.  Bateman seems to be still getting his timing down, Flowers is a game changer and OBJ and Duvernay will make plays .

Andrews is terrific.  I hope we starting getting Likely some targets.

[Biggsy]

So just 7 shorts years after Cam Newton goes number 1 overall, later wins an MVP and goes to a Super Bowl, teams decided black guys can't play QB? (Or however you want to phrase it).

I don't buy it. Other than one talking head who said he should convert to RB.

Beginning of that season Rosen and Darnold were presumed to go #1 and #2 in some order. Darnold was supposed to overcome his high turnover rate, and there were questions about Rosen's coachability. Baker was a wild card, and the Browns did the Browns thing. Allen grew his stock his senior year, with some big plays in some bad weather in Wyoming (perfect fit in Buffalo) and LJ after winning the Heisman wasn't in the running again and was dinged for having a real low completion percentage, but without the context of having receivers with the highest drop% in the NCAA. LJ didn't really "slip" like Aaron Rodgers slipped.

It was more than one talking head. And it doesn't need to be said out loud to be implied. If you want to bury your head in the sand, then by all means, go for it. But let's not pretend there wasn't, and still possibly may be a stereotype of mobile black QB's, and their ability to pass.

That's all you heard during the pre-draft process. Idiots who never took the time, saying he didn't have a strong enough arm, he wasn't accurate, he can't throw a spiral. Ect. ect.


And this is where I disagree with Stoner, it wasn't the air raid/spread style offenses. Lamar ran a pro style offense in college. Lamar slid because people really thought he couldn't throw a football.

[Mike B]

A few other thoughts.

 

The Bengals are a dirty football team.  #55 especially always seemed to be diving on players after they were already down.

 

The Ravens have multiple plans in short yardage.  I think if we are spreading the field it will be Hill, and if we are in the power package it will be Gus.  The wild card is LJ.  It was very impressive the way they ended the game yesterday.

 

The defense again did a job on Burrow.  Hats off to Stephens, Rock Ya Sin, Ronald Darby, Stone, Washington etc.    I heard the Ravens think Marlon may return to practice this week.  Let him have 2 weeks to get ready and play a limited snap count against the Browns if he does return this week.

 

Clowney looks like he is going to help.  He has plenty of juice left.

 

Lamar in this offense is going to be fun.

[hallas]

It was more than one talking head. And it doesn't need to be said out loud to be implied. If you want to bury your head in the sand, then by all means, go for it. But let's not pretend there wasn't, and still possibly may be a stereotype of mobile black QB's, and their ability to pass.

That's all you heard during the pre-draft process. Idiots who never took the time, saying he didn't have a strong enough arm, he wasn't accurate, he can't throw a spiral. Ect. ect.


And this is where I disagree with Stoner, it wasn't the air raid/spread style offenses. Lamar ran a pro style offense in college. Lamar slid because people really thought he couldn't throw a football.

I think it's a little more nuanced than this. You can point to multiple highly drafted dual threat QBs over the years as counterexamples to the idea that it was strictly race. I think that Lamar's voice/accent makes him come off as much more culturally black compared to Vick and RG3 and Cam. The latter 3 you could make the argument that they (naturally or through training) had to whitewash their mannerisms to be seen as acceptable in the draft process, but Lamar couldnt, or wouldnt, and so it led to the racially charged questions about his mental acuity for the position. And then you have the bs wonderlic result adding gasoline to that fire.

While there may be more elements of racism for black QBs, the draft process is pretty much equal opportunity degrading for every draftee. That's why the NFL has had to clamp down on some of the most egregious examples of teams behaving badly. Like asking if your mom is a hooker.

I think his mechanics/footwork were worth giving pause to him, there's no guarantee he would be able to clean that up in the pro level against higher level opponents. And certainly as an athletic QB you wonder if his (or anyone's) athleticism will play against 280 lb guys that run sub-4.5 40s. Obviously with the latter it turned out that he's still the best athlete on the field by a mile, but that's hard to predict.

I think it's ridiculous that he was available at 32. But I'm glad the Ravens picked him up.