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Jeff Passan: How the Orioles Became a Contender


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#1 mweb08

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Posted 05 May 2023 - 07:26 AM

https://www.espn.com...ecame-contender
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#2 You Play to Win the Game

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Posted 05 May 2023 - 07:41 AM

This article conveniently fails to mention the 100’s of losses on purpose which lead to the influx of talent now in the org. He calls out the waiver claim of Jorge Mateo - would’ve never happened if we were trying to win. They’ve done a ton right too. But this stuff needs to be mentioned with all these “process stories” that will be coming over the next several years.
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#3 makoman

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Posted 05 May 2023 - 08:51 AM

Eh, it's a national fluff piece about the good young mix of guys and Adley being a turning point. The article is clear that the team was awful for several years, but its point isn't to focus on bitterness over the past 4 years. We're just too close to it, but fans of say the Rockies and Mariners aren't going to GAF about that. 

 

I'm not saying that writers shouldn't call out the awfulness of the Angelos family, and I hope some do, but if a particular article doesn't it's not a big deal IMO. I just like the players getting some recognition on a national level.

 

And teams that are trying to win pick up waiver claims all the time. The Yankees picked up Franchy Cordero this spring and picked up Matt Carpenter off the street last year. Evan Phillips has been one of the Dodgers best relievers the past few years.


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#4 BSLMikeLowe

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Posted 05 May 2023 - 09:16 AM

The national writers have always, appropriately, been critical of the Angelos’s stewardship of the club. It’s just a very small number in the local media who want to give them a free pass. Most non-Orioles baseball fans don’t give a crap about the Angelos’s, so they don’t want to read about them over and over. But when the team itself becomes an interesting story, some would like to know how they got there.


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#5 You Play to Win the Game

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Posted 05 May 2023 - 10:21 AM

Yeah I’m good here.

The question of “how did the orioles become a winner” starts with years of intentional losing.

How did the Orioles even acquire Adley Rutschman?
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#6 makoman

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Posted 05 May 2023 - 10:24 AM

Yeah I’m good here.

The question of “how did the orioles become a winner” starts with years of intentional losing.

How did the Orioles even acquire Adley Rutschman?

Were they intentionally losing in 2018? 



#7 You Play to Win the Game

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Posted 05 May 2023 - 10:27 AM

Willful ignorance is losing on purpose. Sorry but you can’t win 47 games and proclaim winning was the goal.

#8 makoman

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Posted 05 May 2023 - 10:31 AM

Duquette and Buck were trying to lose so that they could both get fired?

 

I think they failed miserably that year, but were trying. 

 

But whatever, that's not that important and I don't need to have a fight over it.


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#9 BSLMikeLowe

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Posted 05 May 2023 - 10:32 AM

Were they intentionally losing in 2018? 

 

Not until the trade deadline approached, though I think going in they knew the same thing the rest of us did, that it was the last hurrah for that group and even if they somehow made the playoffs things would look very different in 2019.

 

But we don't need Jeff Passan or whoever to explain to us they were intentionally losing from that moment on, so I don't know what the big deal is.



#10 TwentyThirtyFive

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Posted 05 May 2023 - 10:47 AM

This was strictly a player's article and more to the point the effect bonding and team goals can have overall. Not sure why there was any reason to bring up anything mangagement/ownership has or has not done.
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#11 Mike in STL

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Posted 05 May 2023 - 01:09 PM

Duquette and Buck were trying to lose so that they could both get fired?

 

I think they failed miserably that year, but were trying. 

 

But whatever, that's not that important and I don't need to have a fight over it.

Disagree. They managed that year knowing it was probably their last, and then in short order, definitely their last, and didn't set them up for any future success with the moves they made, or didn't, because why would you? Pretty sure IIRC DD was finally starting to acquire international money the year before, then promptly traded it back away for part time players when they didn't have to care anymore. Your boss tells you that you'll be out of a job in 3 months, but before you go, hire me the best people you can under you. Give your replacement something decent to work with. Are you going to do that? And do it well? What the incentive?

 

Said it then, I'll say it again. House should have been cleaned before 2018. (Buck should have been gone after 2016). Let the new group building the team decide how to proceed with the tear down regarding Machado and others since they would be invested in the future of the team. The returns would have been much better. At least different, which is probably better, since the returns are pretty much non-existent.


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#12 Mackus

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Posted 05 May 2023 - 01:19 PM

Pretty sure IIRC DD was finally starting to acquire international money the year before, then promptly traded it back away for part time players when they didn't have to care anyore. 

 

Duquette acquired a ton of international bonus pool space ($2.5M) in the Gausman trade.  It was the primary asset coming back, as all the prospects were super fringy guys outside the org top-30.

 

I think they were terrible trades in retrospect, and all but the Machado trade I disliked not just the results but even at the time, but I also think he was doing exactly what he thought (and I'd argue correctly evaluated) that ownership wanted, which was to cut payroll as much as possible.  Those trades all had a common theme of sending out as much salary as they could, with the talent coming back being a secondary priority.  I don't think it was sabotage on his way out, but rather sort of as an audition to earn an extension.



#13 TwentyThirtyFive

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Posted 05 May 2023 - 01:28 PM

Duquette acquired a ton of international bonus pool space ($2.5M) in the Gausman trade. It was the primary asset coming back, as all the prospects were super fringy guys outside the org top-30.

I think they were terrible trades in retrospect, and all but the Machado trade I disliked not just the results but even at the time, but I also think he was doing exactly what he thought (and I'd argue correctly evaluated) that ownership wanted, which was to cut payroll as much as possible. Those trades all had a common theme of sending out as much salary as they could, with the talent coming back being a secondary priority. I don't think it was sabotage on his way out, but rather sort of as an audition to earn an extension.

I happened to run into an old Thorne interview he did with another teams broadcast in what had to be late June or July of '18. Was interesting to hear him say how much he felt nobody knew anything about what was going on at that time. Buck knew nothing. DD knew nothing. The players knew nothing. About who would be moved or not moved. He literally talked about how disfunctional it all was at that time. Also noted that he had heard there had already been interviews at that time for the next GM. If thats true how could DD really be expected to care about the eventual firesale. Youre not even gone and the team is already interviewing for the next guy.


I also wonder in retrospect if this interview had anything to do with Thorne's falling out with the Os. He went in on them hard.

#14 BSLMikeLowe

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Posted 05 May 2023 - 01:53 PM

Duquette acquired a ton of international bonus pool space ($2.5M) in the Gausman trade.  It was the primary asset coming back, as all the prospects were super fringy guys outside the org top-30.

 

I always suspected the big "return" in that deal was unloading the last year on O' Day's contract, since we all knew they'd never meaningfully spend that international bonus money.



#15 BSLMikeLowe

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Posted 05 May 2023 - 01:57 PM

Disagree. They managed that year knowing it was probably their last, and then in short order, definitely their last, and didn't set them up for any future success with the moves they made, or didn't, because why would you? Pretty sure IIRC DD was finally starting to acquire international money the year before, then promptly traded it back away for part time players when they didn't have to care anymore. Your boss tells you that you'll be out of a job in 3 months, but before you go, hire me the best people you can under you. Give your replacement something decent to work with. Are you going to do that? And do it well? What the incentive?

 

Said it then, I'll say it again. House should have been cleaned before 2018. (Buck should have been gone after 2016). Let the new group building the team decide how to proceed with the tear down regarding Machado and others since they would be invested in the future of the team. The returns would have been much better. At least different, which is probably better, since the returns are pretty much non-existent.

 

I think Duquette was a lame duck the moment Toronto wanted to interview him for the club president position. Buck had a lot more influence with ownership, and thus a lot more rope, but there was no way he could return after 47-115.


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#16 ivanbalt

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Posted 06 May 2023 - 11:21 AM

Willful ignorance is losing on purpose. Sorry but you can’t win 47 games and proclaim winning was the goal.


Chris Davis had 522 plate appearances resulting in a .168 avg, .243 obp and .539 ops.  A team that wanted to win would've benched him in May.


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#17 bmore_ken

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Posted 06 May 2023 - 02:16 PM

I still maintain while I'm enjoying where they're at currently. it's a mirage. As soon as the Yankees get guys back from injury, there's going to be a correction. Winning 10-7 games simply isn't sustainable. Not improving the rotation is going to bite them in the buttocks. Credit to Kyle Gibson though since I always give credit where it's due. 



#18 TwentyThirtyFive

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Posted 06 May 2023 - 02:52 PM

You aint enjoying s**t

#19 CantonJester

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Posted 06 May 2023 - 02:52 PM

I still maintain while I'm enjoying where they're at currently. it's a mirage. As soon as the Yankees get guys back from injury, there's going to be a correction. Winning 10-7 games simply isn't sustainable. Not improving the rotation is going to bite them in the buttocks. Credit to Kyle Gibson though since I always give credit where it's due. 

 

You mean the team with the 280 million dollar payroll won't stay in last place forever? No offense intended, but why is this exclusively at the O's expense?

 

Yes, the Yankees have dug themselves quite a hole. Yes, injuries have played a part, but this is a team that lacks even a replacement level LF. Their current LF options make Santander appear like Paul Blair or Mickey Rivers. Also they have BP issues and their SP outside of Cole is a giant question mark, given the fact Rodon has a chronic back issue (looking like he's out until after the ASB) and Severino is yet again battling injuries (he's thrown a grand total of 120 IP since the start of the 2019 season). Oh, and Stanton is likely out at least another month (hamstring), and if you're familiar with him, it'll take him another month to get up to speed. Oh and then there's the toxicity of Josh Donaldson. I forget how banged up he is. 

 

I'm not so sure this is some anomaly that the Yankees are dealing with all these injuries. It's by design. Or rather, poor roster construction considering the money Cashman's been given. 



#20 BaltBird 24

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Posted 06 May 2023 - 04:45 PM

I'm absolutely shocked that Rodon and Stanton are injured. And while a great player, I think they'll come to regret the Judge deal in a couple of years.




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