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Season Coming & They Can Contend


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#1 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 28 December 2022 - 05:31 PM

While I'm annoyed that the O's haven't done anything substantial to supplement what they have...  what they have is good enough to contend.  

 

If the '23 season was played out 1,000 times based on what's available, I think more often than not they'd be around .500. 

But in any given season, this existing group is good enough to play up and win 85-90 games. 

They could also of course add in season, by utilizing some existing system depth to address any glaring needs. 

 

There is a decent option and some depth at every position. 

 

There is more talent on the come. 

 

Full seasons for Adley and Gunnar. 

Grayson in the rotation to begin the year (he doesn't have to be ready to lead a rotation to help). 

The makings of a quality rotation, with some depth. 
Enough depth to help the pen.  Bullpen obviously was excellent in '22. 
Even if there is some regression, should expect the group to remain productive. 

How good are Bradish and Kremer in '23?
What do you get out of Mullins, Mountcastle, and Hays?

 

Is Stowers ready to regularly produce?

Can Santander replicate his '22?

 

When Means is back on a mound, what's his feel for his change? How's the command?

 

Mateo is going to provide quality defense, and speed... is there a bit more there with the bat?

 

How long a leash does Frazier get at 2nd? 
If Westburg lights it up in the Spring, does he definitely go back to Norfolk?

 

20 games less vs. the Division, could easily be a multi-game swing. 


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#2 bmore_ken

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Posted 28 December 2022 - 05:36 PM

:grin:  :grin:  :grin:



#3 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 28 December 2022 - 05:43 PM

:grin:  :grin:  :grin:

 


No problem with anyone who see's that this team has talent, and is annoyed more hasn't been added to it this off-season....  but anyone that doesn't think this team is pretty talented, I'll disagree with. 

 

They went from 52 wins to 83. 

No reason they can't go from 83 to 90.



#4 weird-O

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Posted 28 December 2022 - 05:47 PM

While I'm annoyed that the O's haven't done anything substantial to supplement what they have...  what they have is good enough to contend.  

Do you mind elaborating on your use of the word "contend"? I'm not trying to me snarky. I want to respond in a meaningful way, but I don't want to assume how you're visualizing the O's contending.


Good news! I saw a dog today.


#5 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 28 December 2022 - 05:49 PM

Do you mind elaborating on your use of the word "contend"? I'm not trying to me snarky. I want to respond in a meaningful way, but I don't want to assume how you're visualizing the O's contending.

 

Capable of winning 85-90 games and making the playoffs. 

 

If you make the playoffs, you've got a chance.  Basically a roll of the dice once there with the short-series. 



#6 TwentyThirtyFive

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Posted 28 December 2022 - 06:43 PM

Yeah, they are an 80 win team on paper. But with more upside to hit 90 wins than downside to hit 70 IMO. I have to remember that we were quite healthy last year and that could be a big factor. That said, what important players are regression candidates vs progression canidates. With the youth, the guys like Gunnar, Adley, Stowers, Bradish, Hall only getting their feet wet I have to think they should progress in possibly in a substantial way. The BP guys could def regress. Urias too. I just dont see significant regression from anyone. Hays is who he is. Mullins is who he is. Mounty is who he is. Santander is who he is. Mateo is who he is.

 

 

 

The note about having more guys one step below right on the cusp is also a good point. Got through the whole paragraph and didnt mention GRod, Westburg, Ortiz, Norby. 



#7 Mike in STL

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Posted 28 December 2022 - 06:48 PM

While I'm annoyed that the O's haven't done anything substantial to supplement what they have...  what they have is good enough to contend.  

 

If the '23 season was played out 1,000 times based on what's available, I think more often than not they'd be around .500. 

But in any given season, this existing group is good enough to play up and win 85-90 games. 

They could also of course add in season, by utilizing some existing system depth to address any glaring needs. 

 

There is a decent option and some depth at every position. 

 

There is more talent on the come. 

 

Full seasons for Adley and Gunnar. 

Grayson in the rotation to begin the year (he doesn't have to be ready to lead a rotation to help). 

The makings of a quality rotation, with some depth. 
Enough depth to help the pen.  Bullpen obviously was excellent in '22. 
Even if there is some regression, should expect the group to remain productive. 

How good are Bradish and Kremer in '23?
What do you get out of Mullins, Mountcastle, and Hays?

 

Is Stowers ready to regularly produce?

Can Santander replicate his '22?

 

When Means is back on a mound, what's his feel for his change? How's the command?

 

Mateo is going to provide quality defense, and speed... is there a bit more there with the bat?

 

How long a leash does Frazier get at 2nd? 
If Westburg lights it up in the Spring, does he definitely go back to Norfolk?

 

20 games less vs. the Division, could easily be a multi-game swing. 

I'm not going to predict the 100-loss season again. They are better. But not good enough.  I feel like they caught lightning in a bottle last year, Odor with some clutch moments despite being bad at everything else, and that will be hard to replicate, even with Adley and Gunnar playing a full season. I think they are about a 75 win team as is, factoring in the balanced schedule.

 

Will they trade some of that #1 farm system depth for immediate contributors? Last year they were in the race and the answer was no, and in fact did the opposite. Traded away contributors for more farm depth. Bullpen struggled and bats went quiet down the stretch. Did they need to be in the division race to be buyers? If they lead the division are they good enough you don't make any moves? We don't know how this FO will handle it, cause the only time the have been in contention, they still sold. 

 

I think Bradish is legit and will be an All-Star if not this season, then next, but well on his way. Kremer, incredible turnaround. If you aren't as good as you are at your best, or as bad as you are at your worst, then I expect some regression this year to a middle ground, but he's serviceable. So if one gets better, the other worse, pretty much standing pat. How much better is Gibson than Lyles? What role does Hall play? How does Means respond when he's back? I don't think much of Voth, Wells, Watkins, all the other JAGs who got turns last year. You aren't going anywhere with  those guys in the rotation. Long relief, okay, one of you.

 

Does G-Rod come up right away? I doubt it. Playing service time games and stuff. But if he does he'll be on an innings count. Maybe doesn't go past 3 IP for the first month, no more than 5 IP til June. Does he make it to the end of the year? If the O's are contending, do they shut him down? Expecting to get 160 IP isn't happening. So where do you trim it? The start, the end, or have him pitch in 3 inning stents for a while? 

 

If Hyde platoons Mullins again, I'll be very upset. Every lineup card should already have Mullins in slot one before they print them out for him to fill in the rest.

 

By the way...Hyde is still here, and we saw how he managed a team in the chase. Not well. So I guess we'll see if that changes if the Orioles are in fact in the chase again, or if he's a warm body filling out lineup cards and talking to the media in another lost season, cause someone has to. If he mismanages some important games this year, it's time to move on with a serious manager. 

 

Mountcastle and Hays are clones of each other in the batters box. Both bats slightly trending down, and the new wall didn't help. They will be under the microscope big time. If we expect Adley and Gunnar to lead the heart of the order, the offense might be as good as Hays and Mountcastle are. 

 

I also feel like if any of Mullins, Hays, Mountcastle, are having a great year, but the team is only around .500, or fighting for only a WC spot, then they will be traded for some 2026 prospects. Lopez had team control left, and that didn't even matter. 

 

Didn't like what I saw in Stowers, too many meatballs just plain whiffed. But he is a lefty and in this park that gives you an advantage, so I'd give him the leash to figure it out. 

 

Mateo is a fine #9 hitter. Does the other things great and runs into a ball every now and then. But sometimes there is a lineup with four of these guys in it. 

 

Westburg is definitely not on the roster until August. They'll play the same clock game with him as Gunnar. First it'll be service time, then it'll be the at bats so he doesn't hit rookie status game. We'll hear about all these things he needs to improve on, and five days later, he will have improved on them (even if he didn't) then he'll be here. That is if the Orioles are contending. If not by then, then its the why start the clock for a losing team game. Frazier isn't getting $8M to sit. He shouldn't even be here, but that's besides the point.

 

Lost an All-Star from the pen, and replaced with known loser retread Givens and a rule 5 pick Politi who had his first inkling of minor league success at 26 years old and now must be on the 26-man or sent back to Boston. Bautista, the reason "we didn't need Lopez", suffered arm fatigue in September when in the chase was asked to do more. So you have to limit him this season. With 65 appearances he wasn't overused compared to other guys who were up into the 70s, but he was overused for him, so, that needs to be more like 55 appearances (You want that 103 MPH heater in the playoffs right?). Meaning more slack for Givens, Shaky Baker, and Rule 5 dude to pick up during the year. Not good. But it is the easiest position group to shore up at the deadline if they chose too. Who needs Lopez?

 

I thought the FO wasn't trying last year, and the players shocked us all. I think they aren't trying again this year, but we won't be shocked. Players will play their hearts out, but regression seems likely since there were zero upgrades, other than the experience factor for a few guys.


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#8 dude

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Posted 28 December 2022 - 07:44 PM

...  what they have is good enough to contend.  

 

I have a bunch of comments.  I am not generally negative on where we are and the current/future opportunity.

 

My general comment is, I agree with most of this.



#9 Slidemaster

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Posted 28 December 2022 - 07:52 PM

I think they can contend. I just feel like they need to have more things go right than not, and they need to not have a bunch of players regress from where they were last year. On top of that, a lot of American League teams have improved, including 3 in the division.

As it stands now if they played the season 100 times, I think they're an 81-85 win team about 55% of the time, and over 90 wins about 15%.

#10 BSLRoseKatz

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Posted 28 December 2022 - 08:14 PM

20 games less vs. the Division, could easily be a multi-game swing. 

 

I've seen this mentioned a bunch and I do think it'll help the overall record but idk about their playoff chances in the wild card or winning the division if we assume everyone else in the AL East will also benefit from a higher percentage of games against the Reds and Pirates than each other. It might make the difference between finishing ahead of someone like the Mariners or not but I feel like the impact of the new schedule for how it impacts them relative to everyone else might be overrated. 


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#11 bmore_ken

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Posted 28 December 2022 - 08:23 PM

I'm not going to predict the 100-loss season again. They are better. But not good enough.  I feel like they caught lightning in a bottle last year

Pretty much where I'm at on the team as currently staffed.



#12 bmore_ken

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Posted 28 December 2022 - 08:24 PM

I think they can contend. I just feel like they need to have more things go right than not, and they need to not have a bunch of players regress from where they were last year. On top of that, a lot of American League teams have improved, including 3 in the division.

As it stands now if they played the season 100 times, I think they're an 81-85 win team about 55% of the time, and over 90 wins about 15%.

I think this what a lot of people are missing. I think Elias like many people here are expecting a repeat of last year. No way every player repeats last years performance. Some might get better, some will regress, and no improvements were made to the team. I don't see this team making the playoffs. 81-85 wins might get them into the playoffs, but it also might not because other teams have improved while the O's haven't.



#13 TwentyThirtyFive

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Posted 28 December 2022 - 08:29 PM

Pretty much where I'm at on the team as currently staffed.

You and Mike are welcome to explain to me how last year was lightning in a bottle outside of the back end of the BP being very good and the year to year volatility than may come from that.


IN 2012 we won 93 games despite a pyth record of 82 -80

In 2022 we won 83 with a pyth of 79 wins.


One was clearly lightning in a bottle. The other not so much. This team was legit good for over 3 months straight. No fluky run diff. Beating quality teams.

#14 Mike in STL

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Posted 28 December 2022 - 08:45 PM

You and Mike are welcome to explain to me how last year was lightning in a bottle outside of the back end of the BP being very good and the year to year volatility  than may come from that. 

 

 

IN 2012 we won 93 games despite a pyth record of 82 -80

 

In 2022 we won 83 with a pyth of 79 wins. 

 

 

One was clearly  lightning in a bottle. THe other not so much. THis team was legit good for over 3 months straight. No fluky run diff. Beating quality teams. 

I think being pretty bad for three months and being one of the best teams in baseball for three months counts as catching lighting in a bottle.

 

I would also say the Yankees caught lightning in bottle for the first three months of the season. They are very unlikely to repeat that start, or that 3 month stretch, or were very unlikely to continue on that pace for a whole six months. 

 

It's just a figure of speech. 

 

Didn't the O's always beat their Pythagorean expectation by a bunch in 2011-2016? Weren't they projected only 63 wins this past season or something? Sorry, I just don't know pyth. 


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#15 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 28 December 2022 - 08:47 PM


I've seen this mentioned a bunch and I do think it'll help the overall record but idk about their playoff chances in the wild card or winning the division if we assume everyone else in the AL East will also benefit from a higher percentage of games against the Reds and Pirates than each other. It might make the difference between finishing ahead of someone like the Mariners or not but I feel like the impact of the new schedule for how it impacts them relative to everyone else might be overrated.


I think the Os benefit the most from this, but we will see.

#16 You Play to Win the Game

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Posted 28 December 2022 - 09:42 PM

Hard to say 2012 was lightning in a bottle when that team went to the ALCS years later. Yea, they missed the playoffs in 2013, but there isn’t such a thing as lightning in a bottle in a 162 game campaign to begin with. We don’t need to crap on the Buck era to feel good about this one.

#17 TwentyThirtyFive

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Posted 28 December 2022 - 09:46 PM

Hard to say 2012 was lightning in a bottle when that team went to the ALCS years later. Yea, they missed the playoffs in 2013, but there isn’t such a thing as lightning in a bottle in a 162 game campaign to begin with. We don’t need to crap on the Buck era to feel good about this one.

Buck was the lightning in a bottle for that 5 year run.


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#18 dude

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Posted 28 December 2022 - 10:02 PM

Hard to say 2012 was lightning in a bottle when that team went to the ALCS years later. Yea, they missed the playoffs in 2013, but there isn’t such a thing as lightning in a bottle in a 162 game campaign to begin with. We don’t need to crap on the Buck era to feel good about this one.

 

In 2012, the Orioles set the (at that time) record for 1-run wins and X-innings wins.  That is a crazy, unexpected result.  A couple years later, the Rangers would make the playoffs nad beat the O's record in 1-run games.  The 2012 team wasn't the culmination of anything....most people had us at 67-72 wins going into the season and the commentary was trade hardy and Jones, rebuild again, etc.  They played crazy good baseball and succeeded.

 

Orioles wound up with Crazy performances in 2014 and 2016.  HR leaders (Cruz, Trumbo) for unexpected guys and Britton, in 2016, had the best season EVER by an RP.  By a fair amount.

 

Orioles were generally ranked 30th in preseason power in 2022.  They didn't add "31 WAR" in the offseason and those results can be fleeting.  Because we're a better team on paper heading into 2023 doesn't mean we win more games.  Performance is more than Talent.



#19 Mike B

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Posted 28 December 2022 - 10:06 PM

While I'm annoyed that the O's haven't done anything substantial to supplement what they have...  what they have is good enough to contend.  

 

If the '23 season was played out 1,000 times based on what's available, I think more often than not they'd be around .500. 

But in any given season, this existing group is good enough to play up and win 85-90 games. 

They could also of course add in season, by utilizing some existing system depth to address any glaring needs. 

 

There is a decent option and some depth at every position. 

 

There is more talent on the come. 

 

Full seasons for Adley and Gunnar. 

Grayson in the rotation to begin the year (he doesn't have to be ready to lead a rotation to help). 

The makings of a quality rotation, with some depth. 
Enough depth to help the pen.  Bullpen obviously was excellent in '22. 
Even if there is some regression, should expect the group to remain productive. 

How good are Bradish and Kremer in '23?
What do you get out of Mullins, Mountcastle, and Hays?

 

Is Stowers ready to regularly produce?

Can Santander replicate his '22?

 

When Means is back on a mound, what's his feel for his change? How's the command?

 

Mateo is going to provide quality defense, and speed... is there a bit more there with the bat?

 

How long a leash does Frazier get at 2nd? 
If Westburg lights it up in the Spring, does he definitely go back to Norfolk?

 

20 games less vs. the Division, could easily be a multi-game swing. 

I think it is tough to handicap the 23 Orioles.  If guys regress, I could see them losing 90 games and if everything goes right, I could see them winning 90.  They probably are a 78 to 84 win team.  The key is the bull pen.  So many guys had peak years in 22, it worries me that if a guy like Perez or Bautista regress, things could get out of hand.


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#20 BSLSteveBirrer

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Posted 29 December 2022 - 08:39 AM

Contrarian take.

 

Do the O's have the talent to compete for a playoff spot? Maybe but to me its filled with a bunch of ifs.

 

If the regulars play above their mean.

 

If the young starters continue an upward trajectory AND GRod contributes right out of the gate.

 

If they stay very healthy. I think our depth especially at the plate is not good.

 

But here's the toughest if to me.

 

If the other teams in the ALE regress over last season. I think that they all have potentially improved their clubs and widened the gap between the O's and themselves. This to me is why its a tough stretch to see us making it to mid September playing meaningful games.


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