31 replies to this topic

[BSLChrisStoner]

BSL: Orioles Off-Season Thoughts: Facts and Opinions

https://baltimorespo...s-and-opinions/

[BSLSteveBirrer]

Spot on across the board!

[Mackus]

If not spending more to improve to 2023 team isn't criminal, then what would be?  I don't literally mean go to jail, but what would be something worthy of harsh criticism if a complete lack of interest in trying to improve the team for the 2023 season isn't?

 

You gave a pass last year (forgive me if you disagree with that wording, trying to be accurate and fair) when you thought they'd bump payroll to $75M.  Forgive and forget again this year if they stay under $50M?  Lets assume there isn't a statement from John Angelos explaining the payroll, just continued silence.

[BSLChrisStoner]

If not spending more to improve to 2023 team isn't criminal, then what would be?  I don't literally mean go to jail, but what would be something worthy of harsh criticism if a complete lack of interest in trying to improve the team for the 2023 season isn't?

 

You gave a pass last year (forgive me if you disagree with that wording, trying to be accurate and fair) when you thought they'd bump payroll to $75M.  Forgive and forget again this year if they stay under $50M?

I think you fan as appropriately for you. 

If you (general you) are out on the Orioles because they don't spend X.... that's a ramification the O's have to deal with.
If enough people are out, that possibly alters their operating procedure. 

 

If you (again general you) think they deserve harsh criticism, give it.  That's you fanning as you want. 

Sometimes I get sucked into the ideals of what I'd like them to do, or think they should be doing vs. the realities of who they are.

And it's fair to criticize them (and hell, me) for that. 

 

Ultimately I come back to the realties that they own the team, it's a business, and they can choose to operate as they want. 
And I can either stay a fan or not support, all the while knowing they don't care either way. 

 

And if I stay a fan, stay engaged, spend money or time watching...  that doesn't mean I / you / anyone can't criticize and wish they'd operate differently.

 

I do think if they choose to operate like this, with one hand tied...  then it's that much easier to blast them if they fall short. 
If they're doing everything they reasonably can to win and fall short, then they fall short. 
If they're not, and they fall short...  it makes the whole process so much less enjoyable. 

 

I don't think it's criminal, because they could win inspite of themselves. 
They're just making things harder on themselves then they ultimately need to. 
If this is how they're going to operate, it's on them to figure out how to maximize their chances despite the self-imposed restrictions they are setting. 

[BSLRoseKatz]

If not spending more to improve to 2023 team isn't criminal, then what would be?  I don't literally mean go to jail, but what would be something worthy of harsh criticism if a complete lack of interest in trying to improve the team for the 2023 season isn't?

 

You gave a pass last year (forgive me if you disagree with that wording, trying to be accurate and fair) when you thought they'd bump payroll to $75M.  Forgive and forget again this year if they stay under $50M?  Lets assume there isn't a statement from John Angelos explaining the payroll, just continued silence.

Not Chris but I'd give them a smidge of credit if they don't trade Cedric or Santander for more prospects because I'm sure there's some amount of Elias that'd be tempted by that knowing Cowser could be ready by June/July and Stowers will presumably be on the Opening Day roster to fill those spots

[Mackus]

If this is how they're going to operate, it's on them to figure out how to maximize their chances despite the self-imposed restrictions they are setting. 

 

But they aren't doing that.  They're just throwing whoever they develop out on the field and hoping.  Like you said maybe that'll be good enough to clear some of the lower bars along the way, maybe even get into the playoffs, but its certainly not the best they could do.

 

If they win 90 games next year with this roster, I'll be very happy with that result just as I was very happy with the 2022 result.  But I'll also be thinking about how they probably could've won 95 or had a better shot of winning whichever postseason series they got knocked out if they would've made some very minor investments in the team.

[Mackus]

I do think if they choose to operate like this, with one hand tied...  then it's that much easier to blast them if they fall short. 

If they're doing everything they reasonably can to win and fall short, then they fall short. 
If they're not, and they fall short...  it makes the whole process so much less enjoyable. 

 

I am curious when you, specifically you, would be critical and perhaps even harshly critical of them.  Is it only after a season falls short of whatever goals you thought were reasonable?  Or would you ever criticize the effort or lack thereof ahead of time?

 

I'm not trying to trap you into an answer or anything like that.  Genuinely curious.  What would make you mad about their efforts.

[BSLChrisStoner]

But they aren't doing that.  They're just throwing whoever they develop out on the field and hoping.  Like you said maybe that'll be good enough to clear some of the lower bars along the way, maybe even get into the playoffs, but its certainly not the best they could do.

 

If they win 90 games next year with this roster, I'll be very happy with that result just as I was very happy with the 2022 result.  But I'll also be thinking about how they probably could've won 95 or had a better shot of winning whichever postseason series they got knocked out if they would've made some very minor investments in the team.

We know that by not spending more they aren't maximizing their opportunity that is available to the organization as a whole.
But if Elias has been told his budget is $50M, then he has to figure out how to best operate within those parameters. 

[BSLChrisStoner]

I am curious when you, specifically you, would be critical and perhaps even harshly critical of them.  Is it only after a season falls short of whatever goals you thought were reasonable?  Or would you ever criticize the effort or lack thereof ahead of time?

 

They have the capability of being a playoff team in '23. 
If they fall short of that because they didn't do enough to help the existing roster, they deserve to be criticized. 
I think it's also fine to criticize them now if you want. 
But if they win despite of how I'd like them to operate, great.  Congrats to them for finding a way.
They don't get extra credit for making it harder on themselves though.

 

I think it's a business and if John Angelos wants to keep all of his $, then he's allowed to do that. 
And if he operates in a manner I don't like, and I continue supporting the product, that's on me. 

I think I was critical here, and I think I've been critical before. 
 

[You Play to Win the Game]

How do you feel about Elias lack of honesty and constant spin?

[BSLChrisStoner]

How do you feel about Elias lack of honesty and constant spin?

 

I think he's been honest. 
I don't think it is a lie that Elias expects / expected to spend more when the O's were good enough.
That bar was hit, so I think he expected to spend more now.

Clearly the MASN and family disputes are real, and could (likely are) impacting things. 
I think the intent is to raise the spending up - external additions, keeping existing - over a period of time. 

But again, I don't care how much the O's spend. If they want to spend $50M, then Elias has to figure how to make $50M work.
There's enough talent on the roster and in the system to address most issues at this point. 

When x team spends $250M, the biggest thing they gain imo are more outs. There is more that can get covered up. Some pitcher flames out? That's ok, I've got 3 more I can bring out of the freezer. 

If you are going to spend $50M, you've got less room for error. 
He needs to hit on his additions and evaluations. 

The only thing Elias has said I really dislike are the, "Probably not good enough, or Wild Card vs Division Title."   
You can think that, there's nothing really gained by saying it. 

[BSLSteveBirrer]

Elias may not "lie" but when I hear terms like liftoff I think most anybody would equate that with an expectation of spending more to improve their chances.

 

So if its not a lie its sure as hell disingenuous. 

[makoman]

I think I'm in the minority but I don't really give a damn what Elias says. He will be judged ultimately on his moves as GM, not what he has said. What was it that Beattie and Flanagan said right after they signed Tejada and Javy and Palmeiro? Who knows, no one cares what they had to say, people care about and remember the moves. If Elias ends up a success or an abject failure it will be because of the players he gets into the organization, not because of what he says to the press.

 

When I'm watching the team next year, my enjoyment is not going to be affected one bit by whatever he said to the press in August or December 2022. If Kyle Gibson is the offseason's big addition I'll be annoyed because the moves were weak and they could have done more to be better and cause ownership is taking a ton of profits at the team's expense, but it's not going to be worse because I was arguably lied to. All that's just noise, if he talks a good game and makes crap moves it's not better for my baseball enjoyment than if he stayed silent and still made crap moves. But again, it seems like a lot of people have taken his words very personally, and I'm not intending to be judgmental even if it sounds like it, but I'm starting to get too old to waste my time being insulted by noise. Just my opinion.

[You Play to Win the Game]

Good post. I’m trying to get to that place. I’m angry because he spun up some nonsense to appease people when he sold on last years hopes. He then backed off that when it was time to cash that check he wrote us. He sold us hope.

But ultimately, I know that you’re right. I have taken it personal and at the end of the day, it really doesn’t matter.

[bmore_ken]

I think I'm in the minority but I don't really give a damn what Elias says. He will be judged ultimately on his moves as GM, not what he has said. What was it that Beattie and Flanagan said right after they signed Tejada and Javy and Palmeiro? Who knows, no one cares what they had to say, people care about and remember the moves. If Elias ends up a success or an abject failure it will be because of the players he gets into the organization, not because of what he says to the press.

When I'm watching the team next year, my enjoyment is not going to be affected one bit by whatever he said to the press in August or December 2022. If Kyle Gibson is the offseason's big addition I'll be annoyed because the moves were weak and they could have done more to be better and cause ownership is taking a ton of profits at the team's expense, but it's not going to be worse because I was arguably lied to. All that's just noise, if he talks a good game and makes crap moves it's not better for my baseball enjoyment than if he stayed silent and still made crap moves. But again, it seems like a lot of people have taken his words very personally, and I'm not intending to be judgmental even if it sounds like it, but I'm starting to get too old to waste my time being insulted by noise. Just my opinion.

We share the same opinion. To be honest there's always a lot of generic BS spoken from sports owners on down in every sport in every organization. Nothing any sports professional says affects my life. Especially Elias. Because even if he wanted to be transparent, you know damn well he's not allowed to. And since he's not allowed to, I can't bother myself enough to get upset. Not to mention I said before last season started and all during the season that they wouldn't do anything to improve the team this offseason. Not surprisingly I was correct.

[Steve55]

Why does everyone equate the 2 things he said meaning they will spend more money. Did he actually say they will spend more money.

[ivanbalt]

Since the Orioles have no interest in trying to improve again, I guess we'll all just have to cross our fingers and hope everyone, especially the pitching, overachieves again in order to play .500 baseball at best.

 

Can't wait to hear the bragging about the farm system and prospects.

[BSLSteveBirrer]

Why does everyone equate the 2 things he said meaning they will spend more money. Did he actually say they will spend more money.

Fair question. But I will answer that with another question. 

 

How else would a fan take it to mean?

[dude]

The islands I've stood on for a while seem to be getting pretty crowded.  That's fine.

 

I have no issues with most of what you wrote there.  But it strikes me that you what to get there without any acknowledgement (ie accountability) of how far that it from your many, many articles and discussions from the last 4+ years.

 

Among many other points, you've said you'd be critical when the time comes if they don't spend.  You try and suggest here you're being critical.  I don't see it.  You seem willing to just go along and whatever is fine. 

[weird-O]

Fair question. But I will answer that with another question. 

 

How else would a fan take it to mean?

I had the same question after reading that post