115 replies to this topic

[You Play to Win the Game]

They've lost 4 games since the deadline. The only one I'd even slightly attribute to the bullpen in any way was the Boston game, and that game was tied. It's not like the pen blew a lead there, and the Orioles scored 3 runs in the game. The pen has been very good without Lopez...so far.

The pen gave up the lead late in that game. But whatever. They’ve been good, so the bullpen is just as good without Lopez - just isn’t an argument that holds any water to me at all.

[glenn__davis]

We're making this more complicated than it really is. No GM is gonna trade their closer in the middle of a playoff race. Hell, he wouldn't have traded Mancini or Lopez if he thought we were gonna be fighting for a playoff spot. He didn't believe in this team and it looks like he got it wrong. I think it's that simple.

 

So I mean either way...he's wrong.  If the team keeps playing well, he was wrong, and if the team starts tanking, he was wrong.

[You Play to Win the Game]

It takes a special kind of cowardice to sit by and watch a team come up short while trading away and doing nothing to help the cause. That’s honestly how I feel. This isn’t a fluid situation. Whatever happens the rest of the season does not add any additional credence to either side.

[glenn__davis]

The pen gave up the lead late in that game. But whatever. They’ve been good, so the bullpen is just as good without Lopez - just isn’t an argument that holds any water to me at all.

 

No they didn't.  The game was tied 3-3 with a runner on 1st in the 6th.  Kremer left, Vespi gave up the double to Hosmer that gave the Sox the lead.

 

In a very short sample size, I would argue the loss of Lopez has had no effect at all...meanwhile, he's blown 2 saves for MIN.  

 

I'm not pounding my chest either.  I truly do not care if I am right or wrong on a messageboard, but so far the facts are what they are.

[You Play to Win the Game]

No they didn't. The game was tied 3-3 with a runner on 1st in the 6th. Kremer left, Vespi gave up the double to Hosmer that gave the Sox the lead.

In a very short sample size, I would argue the loss of Lopez has had no effect at all...meanwhile, he's blown 2 saves for MIN.

I'm not pounding my chest either. I truly do not care if I am right or wrong on a messageboard, but so far the facts are what they are.

Yeah, the bullpen came in, Lopez’s replacement, and allowed the runner to score. Sheesh. No, the facts aren’t in yet. There’s plenty of season to go, and we have two contributors gone.

[glenn__davis]

It takes a special kind of cowardice to sit by and watch a team come up short while trading away and doing nothing to help the cause. That’s honestly how I feel. This isn’t a fluid situation. Whatever happens the rest of the season does not add any additional credence to either side.

 

OK - I mean honestly I have no problem with that.  You think he was wrong regardless of the outcome, I think that's the correct way to look at it if that's your opinion.

 

My argument at deadline time was that trading Mancini and Lopez wasn't punting on the season, and that the team could withstand losing both of those guys and replacing internally.  We'll see what happens down the stretch.

[You Play to Win the Game]

OK - I mean honestly I have no problem with that. You think he was wrong regardless of the outcome, I think that's the correct way to look at it if that's your opinion.

My argument at deadline time was that trading Mancini and Lopez wasn't punting on the season, and that the team could withstand losing both of those guys and replacing internally. We'll see what happens down the stretch.

And even if so, they would’ve definitively been even better with them, even if they do survive Elias’ goal of not winning this year.

[glenn__davis]

Yeah, the bullpen came in, Lopez’s replacement, and allowed the runner to score. Sheesh. No, the facts aren’t in yet. There’s plenty of season to go, and we have two contributors gone.

 

You said "the pen gave up the lead late in that game".  That was incorrect.  The game was tied.  The O's never led in that game.  

 

I said that so far the facts are what they are.  You are correct - plenty of season to go, and we'll both hopefully enjoy every minute of it.

[You Play to Win the Game]

You said "the pen gave up the lead late in that game". That was incorrect. The game was tied. The O's never led in that game.

I said that so far the facts are what they are. You are correct - plenty of season to go, and we'll both hopefully enjoy every minute of it.

There was no lead, until the bullpen allowed a run and this the Red Sox were then leading. That’s what I meant.

[Mackus]

Trading those guys isn't punting, but it is trying less from a management perspective.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

Trading those guys isn't punting, but it is trying less from a management perspective.

I understand this perspective but I dont like it. If you think you can cover Trey and Lopez's production the rest of the way it isnt trying less

[glenn__davis]

There was no lead, until the bullpen allowed a run and this the Red Sox were then leading. That’s what I meant.

 

Ah, gotcha. 

 

I'm not trying to be a jerk or change your mind.  You said the pen had blown several games since the deadline.  It's just not true so far.  Hopefully it remains not true.  I understand your argument that whether or not they continue to pitch well or not does not change your opinion on the trade.  I don't agree with it, but I understand it.

[Mackus]

I understand this perspective but I dont like it. If you think you can cover Trey and Lopez's production the rest of the way it isnt trying less

 

If you happen to cover their production the rest of the way its not getting bit by a move that lowered your overall talent (i.e. expectations) on the field.  Lowering your overall talent, by choice, is trying less, IMO.  Sometimes you have to do that if guys get injured, and you end up covering it (Steve Pearce is an example of this, it worked out great but you'd never have made that exchange ahead of time).  But to do so by choice means that winning now is a lower priority than whatever you think you gained by trading them.

 

Certainly everyone, including Elias, thinks that Trey and Lopez were more likely to contribute than the guys that are replacing them.  To what degree is debatable, but its clear that you make yourself worse on paper by getting rid of them.  If you didn't, then you'd have swapped them on the roster with the replacements.

 

I think we can absorb Trey's loss a lot more ably than Lopez' and I think we got a lot more in return for Trey than we did for Lopez (without even considering that Lopez was about 5X as valuable).  So that trade doesn't bother me much even though I wouldn't have done it.  The Lopez trade I just think is a terrible job of evaluation, probably at every step of the way, but certainly in how valuable his production would be to the remainder of this season.

[BSLSteveBirrer]

And even if so, they would’ve definitively been even better with them, even if they do survive Elias’ goal of not winning this year.

That's just silly.

 

If you want to say his goal was to continue to build the minors this year fine. But to say he had a goal to not win is just wrong. He didn't trade away Mancini or Lopez so that the team wouldn't win this year.

[Mike B]

I understand this perspective but I dont like it. If you think you can cover Trey and Lopez's production the rest of the way it isnt trying less

The Orioles are in the middle of this fight for the playoffs, and while it is unexpected and maybe "Improbable", the fact remains they are in it.  I think at this point, they should go all in, to see if they can do what was thought to be impossible.  Trading key players may turn out to be brilliant in the long run, but right now Trey and Jorge would have made the dream more obtainable.  At times, I think Elias loses track that he is in a competitive business.  Compete like hell from this point in.  

Figure out, who can help and get them here. 

[You Play to Win the Game]

That's just silly.

 

If you want to say his goal was to continue to build the minors this year fine. But to say he had a goal to not win is just wrong. He didn't trade away Mancini or Lopez so that the team wouldn't win this year.

Couldn't disagree more. His actions prove otherwise, so do his words. But whatever, I'm done rehashing all this. 

[TwentyThirtyFive]

If you happen to cover their production the rest of the way its not getting bit by a move that lowered your overall talent (i.e. expectations) on the field.  Lowering your overall talent, by choice, is trying less, IMO.  Sometimes you have to do that if guys get injured, and you end up covering it.  But to do so by choice means that winning now is a lower priority than whatever you think you gained by trading them.

 

Certainly everyone, including Elias, thinks that Trey and Lopez were more likely to contribute than the guys that are replacing them.  To what degree is debatable, but its clear that you make yourself worse on paper by getting rid of them.  If you didn't, then you'd have swapped them on the roster with the replacements.

Im not gonna argue he thought he could do better than Trey and Lopez internally but if he thinks they are going to put up certain production and he expects we can cover 85 or 90% of it internally then yeah technically trying less but it gets an eyeroll from me.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

That's just silly.

 

If you want to say his goal was to continue to build the minors this year fine. But to say he had a goal to not win is just wrong. He didn't trade away Mancini or Lopez so that the team wouldn't win this year.

It is silly. I still refuse to believe Ricker thinks Elias is trying to sabotage the team. He can get all up in his feels. He may hate ELias for trading the two guys. Hate Elias for not doing more. Hate him for talking about probabilities. He doesnt believe he is sabotaging the team. I mean if he is he is doing a horrible job. And it would be the first horrible thing he has ever done here. Am I still doing it right

[You Play to Win the Game]

He's doing a great job, but doesn't at all care about winning this season - which isn't the same as trying to sabotage it. It's cowardice BS, and spineless, and with the #1 farm system, completely unnecessary. It was greedy prospect hoarding over trying to win this season. 

[russsnyder]

Povich has pitched 12 innings and has 15 k's and 2 bbs in his two outings in his two starts since joining Aberdeen. Let's fast track him to Baltimore!