13 replies to this topic

[BSLChrisStoner]

Prior to Duquette's hire, there were a lot of knowledgeable O's fans who were of the mind that the hiring of any General Manager would not matter for this organization.

The thought being that no GM could be successful operating under Mr. Angelos.

My opinion was that the there was enough things that the GM could control, that it did matter who received the opportunity to assume control of the Baseball Operations Department. While there has not been a lot of change to the Major League roster, I believe Duquette has been 'controlling what he can control,' and making fairly significant changes to the organization.

It remains to be seen how successful those moves will prove to be, but regardless of that, the moves themselves show the hire mattered.

If Mr. MacPhail had retained his position, is there anyone that believes the O's would have added 2 additional International Directors, further international scouts, another Cross-checker, combined the Pro Scouting and Amateur Scouting Departments, and made the Minor League hires which have been made?

If you did not believe the GM hired mattered, have these moves changed your opinion?

[Can_of_corn]

What he has done so far is fine but I don't see enough change to think that the O's have a realistic chance of climbing out of fifth place in the AL East anytime soon.

I still think a targeted sell off is the only way to get the necessary talent into the organization.

[BSLChrisStoner]

What he has done so far is fine but I don't see enough change to think that the O's have a realistic chance of climbing out of fifth place in the AL East anytime soon.

I still think a targeted sell off is the only way to get the necessary talent into the organization.

I sort of view these thoughts (tangible improvement, and how to get there) as secondary thoughts.

Many people did (and I believe still do) think that it did not matter who was hired, because they would not be able to do enough internally to change the O's course as an organization.

Whether you think the O's can get out of the cellar in the near-term or not, are the moves you are seeing from Duquette indicative that the hire mattered?

Meaning will you see anything he does as rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic, or are the moves we have seen, indication that the Warehouse will now begin to operate in a different manner vs. what we have seen since prior to the '98 season?

[Can_of_corn]

The problem is you can't prove a negative. We have seen what he has been allowed to do but we have not seen what he has not been allowed to do. Without knowing his limitations it is hard for me to judge the impact of what has been done.

That make sense?

[BSLChrisStoner]

The problem is you can't prove a negative. We have seen what he has been allowed to do but we have not seen what he has not been allowed to do. Without knowing his limitations it is hard for me to judge the impact of what has been done.

That make sense?

Yeah, I think that is a logical response. Based on what we have seen previously, one would have to expect there are some limitations of what he is able to do.

However, as you pointed out, you can't prove a negative. So you are left with the results as known. Even if there are unknown limitations, I feel we are seeing some change in structure we would have otherwise not seen.

[Can_of_corn]

I agree but right now they are far behind and the moves DD have made might only be good enough to keep them from falling further behind.

I would be happier if these moves were made five years ago. The new CBA is going to blunt the impact.

[Luke Jackson]

I've been thinking about just this topic recently. After the LaCava fiasco, I had made up my mind that the Orioles didn't stand much of a chance to be competitive in the AL East until Angelos went away one way or another. I think I still believe this, but I'm sure I'll trick myself into thinking that Dan Duquette -- an extremely bright individual -- has the magic touch that the seven (!!!) other GM's before him didn't have.

Thinking about this objectively...when the hardest thing about Duquette's job is not the AL East, it tells you how difficult the situation Duquette is in with regards to ownership. The most difficult thing about his job will be dealing with Angelos and Angelos' apparent obliviousness as to how much he's harmed the franchise over the last decade and a half. What's the scariest part about Angelos is that I think he honestly believes what he's done has been the best for the franchise. I think he's incredibly stubborn, which is dangerous when it comes in contact with his ignorance about baseball.

The interview process was a microcosm of the last 15 years. You had candidates being interviewed by Angelos' two sons, Russell Smouse, and Buck Showalter. Of those four guys, only one has any baseball acumen, and even that guy shouldn't be participating in the hiring process because he's effectively helping hire his boss. Gah. And they actually interviewed John Stockstill. Now, I understand that David is the real incompetent with those two, but still, good lord almighty. John Stockstill. Bah. Then we find out shortly thereafter that LaCava -- probably the best man for a rebuilding job -- didn't take the job largely because Angelos wouldn't provide him the wherewithal to fire the worthless and counterproductive Angelos cronies in the org. These cronies, of course, have direct contact with Angelos. Klaw has made this point about the O's before: When underlings have direct access to ownership and can undermine the GM, the franchise will fail under that GM before any games are even played. It makes sense -- everyone in an organization has to be in constant communication and pulling in the same direction and working towards the exact same goal. When they're not, it's a no-win, dysfunctional situation.

I honestly can't tell you whether Angelos has nixed certain trades, signings, or forced GM's to go after someone like Vlad Guerrero. Some have speculated that Angelos was the driving force for signing Vlad, money which was taken from the amateur budget. I can't tell you if that's true. What I can tell you is that Angelos -- who, presumably, wants to be in the know as the team makes moves -- does not seem like an easy person for baseball ops to keep in contact with. If Angelos wants to be in the know, that's his right. He's the owner. He has the right to have the last say. But when you're only in the warehouse once or twice a month and baseball ops people can't stay in constant contact with you, it puts a lot of undue stress on baseball ops. So, more dysfunction.

Let's get back to the Angelos cronies. It's easy to say, "Well...let the real baseball people work around the worthless Angelos cronies." Problem is that Angelos cronies are in vital baseball ops positions. Does the GM want to improve player development? They'll be involved and perhaps undermining you. Duquette is in the most difficult position in baseball. If he can pull this magic trick off, I'll pay for a statue of him in the Inner Harbor.*

*If I am rich at that time, which seems unlikely.

Some have said that Angelos makes a truckload of money off the Orioles/MASN, pockets the money and has no interest in seeing the Orioles win, only that profit remains high. I can't say how much the O's and MASN make. What I can say is that all baseball teams maximize revenue when they're winning. That's a fact. Economics 101. All owners have at least one incentive to win, and that's to maximize revenue.**

**I also read from Kevin Van Valkenburg on Twitter that Angelos probably wants the Nationals to succeed in order to build the MASN brand without taking on any risk. If, say, Prince Fielder were to sign with the Nats (possible), the MASN brand grows and Angelos doesn't have to pay a massive first baseman a lot of money, thereby assuming a lot of reward but no risk. I don't know. But it's an interesting theory.

With all this being said, I've followed Duquette's off-season additions and reshuffling of baseball ops people as close as anyone because I'm a diehard Orioles fan and a huge baseball geek. I want the O's to win more than anything, and I'm sure a lot of you feel the same way. I'm 21 years old. I've never seen a winning Orioles team. Last time the O's were good, I was six years old. I can't remember when I was six. But deep down, I know Duquette's moves probably won't matter because of Angelos' restrictions.

[SportsGuy]

The moves he has made, off the field, have been great. Hale, Peterson, the mvoement towards more a bigger international presence, etc...

All of that is great.

But we have to see if it pans out.

Right now, I still think he is hamstrung with what he can do with the ML team although if he trades Jones, I will back off that a little bit.

[David Robinette]

The interview process was a microcosm of the last 15 years. You had candidates being interviewed by Angelos' two sons, Russell Smouse, and Buck Showalter. Of those four guys, only one has any baseball acumen, and even that guy shouldn't be participating in the hiring process because he's effectively helping hire his boss. Gah. And they actually interviewed John Stockstill. Now, I understand that David is the real incompetent with those two, but still, good lord almighty. John Stockstill. Bah. Then we find out shortly thereafter that LaCava -- probably the best man for a rebuilding job -- didn't take the job largely because Angelos wouldn't provide him the wherewithal to fire the worthless and counterproductive Angelos cronies in the org. These cronies, of course, have direct contact with Angelos. Klaw has made this point about the O's before: When underlings have direct access to ownership and can undermine the GM, the franchise will fail under that GM before any games are even played. It makes sense -- everyone in an organization has to be in constant communication and pulling in the same direction and working towards the exact same goal. When they're not, it's a no-win, dysfunctional situation.

What I can tell you is that Angelos -- who, presumably, wants to be in the know as the team makes moves -- does not seem like an easy person for baseball ops to keep in contact with. If Angelos wants to be in the know, that's his right. He's the owner. He has the right to have the last say. But when you're only in the warehouse once or twice a month and baseball ops people can't stay in constant contact with you, it puts a lot of undue stress on baseball ops. So, more dysfunction.

Let's get back to the Angelos cronies. It's easy to say, "Well...let the real baseball people work around the worthless Angelos cronies." Problem is that Angelos cronies are in vital baseball ops positions. Does the GM want to improve player development? They'll be involved and perhaps undermining you. Duquette is in the most difficult position in baseball.

I cut and pasted what I think are the most important parts of luke_jackson10's post, above. I am not nearly as close to baseball operations in Baltimore as some of the posters here are. I do have a very lengthy track record in executive and management positions in the public and private sectors.

If the assertions made in these three paragraphs are just even a close description of how the Orioles' organization has been set up, it is no wonder that it is one of the worst in MLB. It looks as if someone read an introductory textbook on management and decided to do everything the wrong way. Wow! That is an amazing indictment of Peter Angelos and his business judgment.

[NCRaven]

I think Duquette has made excellent management, scouting and player development hires. Even though some of the executives involved are older than some would like, particularly Thomas and Fierrara (sp?), but they are high quality, experienced execs. On the field, I like the Chen signing and the bench moves for Teagarden, Antonelli, Chavez and Flaherty. The only questionable move for me is Eveland, but I'm not violently opposed. My only real objection is the indecision on Jones. If he really isn't an easy extension, then I think he should be moved. On the plus side, it does seem that DD is at least willing to explore oppotunities there.

So, yes, I think it did matter who was hired. And, I think that the DD hire has been positive, so far. He's moved much more quickly in a lot of off field areas than I would have expected for someone who had been out of the game as long as DD was. He's adjusted and moved as quickly as could be hoped for.

[NewMarketSean]

Hiring the right people and allowing them the space and freedom to do what they were hired for are two totally different things in Baltimore. Leo Mazzone was a great hire...how'd that work?

Even Angelos' hand-picked GM, Andy MacPhail, was eventually held back from what he could do in not being able to hire Wedge.

Even though DD seems to be making good moves, there still seems to be some confusion to the hierarchy within the warehouse. Does Buck report to DD? Angelos? Will they work well together or will there be a power struggle there?

Those types of problems, combined with Angelos being the owner, are what have doomed this organization repeatedly. Not the actual people who have been hired.

[David Robinette]

When I think of all of the top quality non-player members of the organization who have departed over the years, it starts to add up now. Just off the top of my head I am thinking of people such as Dave Johnson (as a manager, not player), Pat Gillick, even Jon Miller. I'm sure I could think of more if I tried. No wonder this team is going nowhere.

[33rdst]

I think Duquette has done an extraordinary job in a very short period of time. Frankly, I've been quite surprised that he has had the freedom to make some of the moves he has made. This suggests to me that he has a personnel budget he controls.

The moves he has made this far, while not exciting to some, were entirely necessary and reflected just how bad things were structurely in this organization. As to the ML team, I agree with those that say he is not in full control. Buck may be his biggest obstacle . Although, I don't have anyway of knowing that for sure . I just think that he's in win now mode, which precludes DD from making any major deals involving core players. I still believe DD has a trade or two left in him before spring training, though they won't be the major deals some have hoped for.

[Adam Wolff]

Someone on the OH made a comment I thought was appropriate a little while back. It was something to the effect of, "The Orioles are like a fat girl. This year, instead of trying to squeeze into tight clothing and convince some drunk they're hot, they're not going to the bar, and instead starting to exercise and eat right."

Not sure if that was it exactly, but you get the gist. To me, that's what Duquette has done. We aren't out trying to sign players, for the most part. Let's get our ducks in a line internally before we start throwing money around. We're not out paying for over the hill, has been's. The focus has been on improving this franchise going forward, and I applaud that.

Who knows how much has been improved, but I'd be shocked if things aren't at least somewhat better, in some fashion. Hopefully this is the start of actually righting the ship.