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Lamar's Extension


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#1 Slidemaster

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Posted 13 December 2021 - 01:05 PM

I feel (without being overly pessimistic), that it is genuinely in the best interest of both parties to wait to discuss an extension until after next year. Lamar has not just come back to earth, but been genuinely terrible for weeks now, and flaws have been revealed in his skill set that are serious enough that the Ravens brass (at least privately) need to be concerned about his long-term viability. It says something that there is even a debate about whether Huntley is playing better than him now.

Conversely, I think Lamar likely will want to wait on an extension until after the 2022-23 season, as his price has to be significantly lower right now than he wants it to be. His MVP season has proven to be his career year (thus far) and my guess is that he wants to bet on himself before putting pen to paper on a deal.

If Lamar insists on getting paid 40+ million for 8+ years, and his play doesn't improve next season, I think they absolutely need to let him walk. His play this season has been average to poor, and you just don't give that money to someone unless you know what you're getting. Someone receiving a contract like that has to be single handedly capable of keeping the team competitive every year. At this point, it's fair to wonder what kind of QB he would be over the majority of that deal.

I don't think Lamar is terrible and I'm not "out" on him as the QB of the future yet, but my doubts are strong enough that I think this is probably the way it needs to go.

#2 TwentyThirtyFive

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Posted 13 December 2021 - 01:08 PM

Mackus already went over this with you. His price is not lower. He should and likely will hold out this offseason if the Ravens try to take it year by year.

#3 Slidemaster

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Posted 13 December 2021 - 01:12 PM

Mackus already went over this with you. His price is not lower. He should and likely will hold out this offseason if the Ravens try to take it year by year.

Maybe. If he does, they can't bend to his demands. You take the tanked season and draft his replacement. No way you can devote 250 million or more to a guy playing like he's been playing, and potentially ending the season with an injury.

If he thinks he'll get more on the open market from a team without the system in place to support him, and without playing football for a full season and change, he's crazy.

#4 Old Man

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Posted 13 December 2021 - 01:18 PM

FB blew up his injury.

 

You would have thought it was a political battle.

 

There was a ton of Lamar haters, and a vast number of Lamar fans.

 

Both sides attacked with gusto, and I suspect the truth was somewhere in the middle.

 

I doubt Lamar walks on water, but then again, everything wrong in the NFL is not Lamar's fault.



#5 Slidemaster

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Posted 13 December 2021 - 01:20 PM

FB blew up his injury.

You would have thought it was a political battle.

There was a ton of Lamar haters, and a vast number of Lamar fans.

Both sides attacked with gusto, and I suspect the truth was somewhere in the middle.

I doubt Lamar walks on water, but then again, everything wrong in the NFL is not Lamar's fault.


The haters have been waiting for this. He's been very durable his entire career, but one ankle sprain and I'm sure they were loving it.

To be clear, durability concerns are not what I'm worried about.
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#6 TwentyThirtyFive

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Posted 13 December 2021 - 01:25 PM

Also Lamar played what  3 series yesterday?? Trying to judge him on yesterday is not fair and its stupid. And just looking at the stats he was 4-4 with no turnovers anyway if you are trying to be unfair and in any way judge him on yesterday. 

 

 

Its also not debateable in any way that Huntley is better or playing better. Non. Zero. Hes a poor mans Lamar even when Lamar isnt playing well.


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#7 makoman

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Posted 13 December 2021 - 01:28 PM

It says something that there is even a debate about whether Huntley is playing better than him now.

 

I don't think that's true at all among reasonable people. I like Huntley, but he's being graded on a curve (rightfully so). In a 2 point loss he had one fumble for 7 points and another fumble that took at least 3 off the board. In the last five minutes he missed at least two wide open passes where Brown was behind the defense. Threw a pick on the 2 point attempt. Lamar would have been skewered if he did all that, everyone would have been talking about how he lost us the game. 

 

Lamar sucks right now, no doubt. But the Colts game wasn't years ago, he was being talked about as the MVP merely two months ago. Pat Mahomes was 26-49 with 2 picks in the Super Bowl. Nobody is any good with a terrible OL. I firmly believe if you fix the line you fix Lamar. I hope that's the prime focus of the draft and offseason.



#8 Slidemaster

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Posted 13 December 2021 - 01:29 PM

Also Lamar played what 3 series yesterday?? Trying to judge him on yesterday is not fair and its stupid. And just looking at the stats he was 4-4 with no turnovers anyway if you are trying to be unfair and in any way judge him on yesterday.


Its also not debateable in any way that Huntley is better or playing better. Non. Zero.


I'm not judging him on yesterday, but it wasn't like the offense was humming either way.

And yes, it is debatable. Huntley HAS played better than Lamar of late. It's honestly hard to play worse than Lamar has the last month or so.

#9 Slidemaster

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Posted 13 December 2021 - 01:30 PM

I don't think that's true at all among reasonable people. I like Huntley, but he's being graded on a curve (rightfully so). In a 2 point loss he had one fumble for 7 points and another fumble that took at least 3 off the board. In the last five minutes he missed at least two wide open passes where Brown was behind the defense. Threw a pick on the 2 point attempt. Lamar would have been skewered if he did all that, everyone would have been talking about how he lost us the game.

Lamar sucks right now, no doubt. But the Colts game wasn't years ago, he was being talked about as the MVP merely two months ago. Pat Mahomes was 26-49 with 2 picks in the Super Bowl. Nobody is any good with a terrible OL. I firmly believe if you fix the line you fix Lamar. I hope that's the prime focus of the draft and offseason.


Could you show me using statistics and analysis how Lamar has been demonstrably better than Huntley since Miami? Take the name off the jersey and show me. I'm not being unreasonable, nor am I the only person here who feels this way.. None of what you just described is any worse than Lamar has been. He leads the league in turnovers coming into this week.

I don't think Huntley is a better QB, but he is at least playing as well (as badly?), if not better, than Lamar.

#10 jamesdean

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Posted 13 December 2021 - 01:37 PM

None of that is any worse than Lamar has been. He leads the league in turnovers coming into this week.

I don't think Huntley is a better QB, but he is at least playing as well, if not better, than Lamar.

To me, it looks like he was seeing the whole field better than Lamar and effectively spread out passes to all his receivers for the exception of Watkins, who is slowly but surely playing his way off the team.  Huntley looked more confident in what he was doing with the ball.  Lamar just looks shellshocked and hesitant every time he's about to throw.  There's obviously no comparison in talent level but right now, with the staggering amount of injuries involved, maybe Lamar needs to take a couple of weeks off and get his mind right. That is of course, if his ankle isn't that bad. 


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#11 Slidemaster

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Posted 13 December 2021 - 01:40 PM

To me, it looks like he was seeing the whole field better than Lamar and effectively spread out passes to all his receivers for the exception of Watkins, who is slowly but surely playing his way off the team. Huntley looked more confident in what he was doing with the ball. Lamar just looks shellshocked and hesitant every time he's about to throw. There's obviously no comparison in talent level but right now, with the staggering amount of injuries involved, maybe Lamar needs to take a couple of weeks off and get his mind right. That is of course, if his ankle isn't that bad.


I agree. I think he's also been seeing pressure constantly as teams realize the offense has no answer for the blitz, and it's making his internal clock tick faster and his heart beat quicker.

#12 makoman

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Posted 13 December 2021 - 02:01 PM

Could you show me using statistics and analysis how Lamar has been demonstrably better than Huntley since Miami? Take the name off the jersey and show me. I'm not being unreasonable, nor am I the only person here who feels this way.. None of what you just described is any worse than Lamar has been. He leads the league in turnovers coming into this week.

I don't think Huntley is a better QB, but he is at least playing as well (as badly?), if not better, than Lamar.

 

I can't, Lamar has been a TO machine, is holding the ball too much, is playing too much hero ball, and generally just seems spooked by the pressure. He even said the other day something like he knows he hasn't made some throws because he's worried about strip sacks. I don't think it's as simple as he can't handle the blitz, he's been blitzed plenty in his life before Miami and was fine, I think the lack of pass protection from the line is in his head. That's why I say fix the line and you fix Lamar, get it out of his head.

 

So I take it back as I misinterpreted what you said that I quoted. It is debatable whether Lamar or Huntley is playing better right now. I don't feel it is debatable that Lamar is better going forward. Huntley is doing great for your second guy, but he didn't do much against the Bears until the last minute and I talked about the issues yesterday. But I saw people saying Huntley should start even if Lamar is healthy, and that to me is just crazy. Keep in mind we are comparing Huntley to worst-stretch-of-his-career Lamar and can't determine the clear winner, that's not exactly a ringing endorsement of Huntley's play. We know Lamar can be better, we don't know that about Huntley. 

 

But sure, if you think this is Lamar going forward you don't extend him, I just don't think this is a permanent issue.



#13 Ricker Says

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Posted 13 December 2021 - 02:08 PM

I feel (without being overly pessimistic), that it is genuinely in the best interest of both parties to wait to discuss an extension until after next year. Lamar has not just come back to earth, but been genuinely terrible for weeks now, and flaws have been revealed in his skill set that are serious enough that the Ravens brass (at least privately) need to be concerned about his long-term viability. It says something that there is even a debate about whether Huntley is playing better than him now.

Conversely, I think Lamar likely will want to wait on an extension until after the 2022-23 season, as his price has to be significantly lower right now than he wants it to be. His MVP season has proven to be his career year (thus far) and my guess is that he wants to bet on himself before putting pen to paper on a deal.

If Lamar insists on getting paid 40+ million for 8+ years, and his play doesn't improve next season, I think they absolutely need to let him walk. His play this season has been average to poor, and you just don't give that money to someone unless you know what you're getting. Someone receiving a contract like that has to be single handedly capable of keeping the team competitive every year. At this point, it's fair to wonder what kind of QB he would be over the majority of that deal.

I don't think Lamar is terrible and I'm not "out" on him as the QB of the future yet, but my doubts are strong enough that I think this is probably the way it needs to go.

 

I disagree with the bolded. But other than that, solid post. ;)


“We have a shot at a wild card right now. But it is not a probability that we're going to win a wild card.” - Mike Elias

#14 Ravens2006

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Posted 13 December 2021 - 02:16 PM

I don't know what it is about football fan mood swings, but they're way more extreme than any other sport it seems.

Lamar has been a huge asset offensively for most of three years now. Again, that's not to say he's flawless or blameless when things go wrong. The INTs lately are probably the biggest cause for concern. Is it a blip in the resume? I think it's worth giving him the benefit of the doubt for a while. After 6 weeks the MVP talk was getting louder again.

I'm fine with Huntley as a backup and hopeful he can continue to help keep them in games. But also consider, when he entered the game, a sack fumble resulted in 7 free points before half, and another fumble early in the 3rd took points off the board. They moved the ball (and he delivered) when the Browns went more prevent with a big lead. Which is fine and good. But some perspective. He has to prove a lot more, and every series he plays, there's more film on him for opponents to see. So time will tell...

Having a whole week between games makes every win and loss seem so much bigger. Lose two straight and suddenly you take the field feeling like you haven't won in a month. ;)

If folks want to let him go and take their chances on another franchise QB hopeful in a year and a half, okay. Then the OL has to be much better. And hope their top three RBs aren't all out for the year. And their blocking TE and bulldozer FB aren't out. And the OC calls an offense best suited to the QBs skillset AND the players surrounding him.

#15 Slidemaster

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Posted 13 December 2021 - 02:22 PM


I disagree with the bolded. But other than that, solid post. ;)


Would you give him a Mahomes-esque contract today?

#16 Slidemaster

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Posted 13 December 2021 - 02:25 PM

I can't, Lamar has been a TO machine, is holding the ball too much, is playing too much hero ball, and generally just seems spooked by the pressure. He even said the other day something like he knows he hasn't made some throws because he's worried about strip sacks. I don't think it's as simple as he can't handle the blitz, he's been blitzed plenty in his life before Miami and was fine, I think the lack of pass protection from the line is in his head. That's why I say fix the line and you fix Lamar, get it out of his head.

So I take it back as I misinterpreted what you said that I quoted. It is debatable whether Lamar or Huntley is playing better right now. I don't feel it is debatable that Lamar is better going forward. Huntley is doing great for your second guy, but he didn't do much against the Bears until the last minute and I talked about the issues yesterday. But I saw people saying Huntley should start even if Lamar is healthy, and that to me is just crazy. Keep in mind we are comparing Huntley to worst-stretch-of-his-career Lamar and can't determine the clear winner, that's not exactly a ringing endorsement of Huntley's play. We know Lamar can be better, we don't know that about Huntley.

But sure, if you think this is Lamar going forward you don't extend him, I just don't think this is a permanent issue.

I do think Huntley is better than Lamar right now. I don't think he's better long term...but I also don't know what Lamar long term looks like. That's why I think both parties should figure out an extension after next year, assuming they both want one.

#17 Ricker Says

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Posted 13 December 2021 - 02:27 PM

Would you give him a Mahomes-esque contract today?

Pay him and pray. 

 

I can't think of a scenario where some college QB today or any other QB that would be available would be more trustworthy and deserving of it. There is significant risk, he's not a complete QB. It's a team game, and I'm betting his issues this year have a lot more to do with the team around him than himself. 

 

To be clear, I'm scared like hell, but you have to do it and he deserves it. I had more of a knot in my stomach when we gave Flacco his deal, even though he had just won a SB. I knew deep down that was a high water mark by far, and he was far more average. With Lamar, I have a LOT of confidence that he'll be just fine. 

 

My fear really comes from the way the salary cap works in the NFL, and how paying one person that much can really impact things. But that isn't on Lamar, that's a league wide NFL salary cap thing. Every team worry's about that. If you pay two high end defensive players big deals in one off-season, they have to hit too. Sometimes they don't, you see it all the time all over the league. 


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#18 Ravens2006

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Posted 13 December 2021 - 02:35 PM

Also important to note, Lamar's injury happened yesterday not when he was running the ball for yardage, but when he was running for his life to avoid a sack because the OL failed to pick up the blitzer. Bozeman ignores the safety playing just off the line and briefly doubles the guy to his inside. Then Bozeman releases and starts downfield, running past the guy who would wind up injuring Lamar. And Andrews doesn't chip and get off his block quick enough, meaning Bozeman looked like he was running a WR go route while Lamar still had the ball. :)

#19 Ricker Says

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Posted 13 December 2021 - 02:39 PM

I know they're trying to make the playoffs, I get that and respect that and obviously want that too. But given how important an asset Lamar is both now and moving forward, particularly moving forward given the looming deal, how is it not reckless that given we CLEARLY can't protect him whatsoever, Roman hasn't dialed it in and gone big and run a more simple offense to protect him? 

 

To be clear, I didn't make this complaint before the game yesterday - so maybe this is still just a reactionary hot take and I need to cool off still. But I don't like it. I really think they need to dial it in. Not quit, but simplify things. He's just taken a beating of epic proportion and I hate watching it.


“We have a shot at a wild card right now. But it is not a probability that we're going to win a wild card.” - Mike Elias

#20 Ravens2006

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Posted 13 December 2021 - 02:49 PM

I know they're trying to make the playoffs, I get that and respect that and obviously want that too. But given how important an asset Lamar is both now and moving forward, particularly moving forward given the looming deal, how is it not reckless that given we CLEARLY can't protect him whatsoever, Roman hasn't dialed it in and gone big and run a more simple offense to protect him?

To be clear, I didn't make this complaint before the game yesterday - so maybe this is still just a reactionary hot take and I need to cool off still. But I don't like it. I really think they need to dial it in. Not quit, but simplify things. He's just taken a beating of epic proportion and I hate watching it.


I agree a lot with this. But I've always been a big run game proponent. Our OL is NOT particularly fast on their feet, but they are BIG on their feet. Would kill to see more effort to maybe "be boring" early and work on pounding the DL. Then try to hit the play action roll outs and deep shots. Yesterday Freeman was running well and hard all game, but he had all of five carries in the first half.
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