5723 replies to this topic

[TwentyThirtyFive]

I'm surprised that you are convinced it's silly. Know what else is silly? Signing someone with genuine questions about their game to a franchise crippling contract.

I don't know if I'd sign the next guy. I don't know who the next guy is yet. However, I think it's a reasonable, if Lamar never played another game before negotiating his contract, that there be enough doubt about who he is to give us serious pause about the benefits of trading him for a haul vs. giving him the kind of money that will require that he do most of the work on offense himself.

We're watching him play without a great deal of help now, and he isn't good. A team built around him with the kind of cap hit he will cause might be better than this...but by how much? Is this a sneak preview at how he looks without the money to afford great supporting pieces?

I'm not sure. Neither are you. I'm also not sure I don't want to sign him. However, pretending there is NO viable alternative and it is a DISASTER of FRANCHISE DESTROYING proportions to trade him for multiple firsts and move on is just emotion talking.

Lol. Dramatic much. Franchise crippling contract.

[Slidemaster]

Lol. Dramatic much. Franchise crippling contract.

Maybe a little overly dramatic. Almost as dramatic as hoping football disappears forever.

[Mackus]

Lamar not forcing the issue and allowing the team to go another year is the best outcome, I agree.  The longer you can go without making a big commitment, the better.  That's true regardless of how he is performing.

 

I am intrigued by the potential of getting him for a little less money, or perhaps the same money but less guaranteed, after the down year and especially with some minor injury issues.  I don't really think this year has lowered his price any, but if it has, I probably sign even if he's willing to run it back on the 5th year option.   Saving 5-10% annually on the deal ends up being a big number considering how big it will be overall.  I'm confident enough in what the final decision will be after 2022 that I'd commit and lock in now if it represents a discount on what I think it'd take next year.

 

So, in ranking the possible outcomes...I'd go:

 

Sign him for $38-42M APY after this year (not confident this is possible)

Let him play on $24M 5th year option

Sign him for $44-46M APY after this year

Trade him for 3 #1s after this year

[Slidemaster]

Lamar not forcing the issue and allowing the team to go another year is the best outcome, I agree. The longer you can go without making a big commitment, the better. That's true regardless of how he is performing.

I am intrigued by the potential of getting him for a little less money, or perhaps the same money but less guaranteed, after the down year and especially with some minor injury issues. I don't really think this year has lowered his price any, but if it has, I probably sign even if he's willing to run it back on the 5th year option. Saving 5-10% annually on the deal ends up being a big number considering how big it will be overall. I'm confident enough in what the final decision will be after 2022 that I'd commit and lock in now if it represents a discount on what I think it'd take next year.

So, in ranking the possible outcomes...I'd go:

Sign him for $38-42M APY after this year (not confident this is possible)
Let him play on $24M 5th year option
Sign him for $44-46M APY after this year
Trade him for 3 #1s after this year

I don't know what order I'd place them yet, because I want to see hoe he does the final 4 games. If the final 4 games are more of the same, I'd want him to play the 5th year first, sign for a discount/trade for 3 #1s depending on how much of a discount is available, and my least favorite choice is to break the bank.

If he turns it around or assuages some of my concerns, that of course could (and would) change.

[cprenegade]

Personally, I don't think this year is going to factor that much into his contract.  And waiting in the end is going to cost more.  He started the season with no serviceable RBs and still has none.  Even before the season I questioned how good the Oline was going to be, and with the injuries it has turned into one of the worst in the league.  The secondary was bad from the beginning and forced the offense to play catch up through most of the season.  The passing game was actually a pleasant surprise and helped keep the team afloat despite all of the injuries. That was before teams figured out the Ravens were fielding a JV Oline that they could blitz through like Germany did to Poland in WWII.  

 

If I was an agent for Lamar Jackson (And I would strongly advise him to get one), if the team came back to me talking about a down year I would basically tell them without my client in the first half of the year, this team would be hopelessly buried behind even the Steelers in this division.  Then I would say it will be fine to play for 24 million next year, but after that don't expect any breaks.  Either pay my client one of the top contracts in the game, which will only go up, or let him walk and sign his own deal with someone else.  Otherwise holdout is very much on the table.  

[TwentyThirtyFive]

Lamar did the Ravens a huge solid by playing and not saying a peep this year. Especially his style behind this line. I cant encourage him enough to get a deal done this year or hold out.

[Ravens2006]

Yeah, with this O line group and RBs, along with Boyle missing a lot of time... the Ravens record would probably be reversed at best with most other QBs. A handful of tough games wouldn't budge my contract target one inch if I were him.

[Mackus]

I agree that if Lamar were open to a less than Allen level contract (i.e. even a modest discount) it'd have already been signed. This year won't reduce his price.

[bmore_ken]

Personally, I don't think this year is going to factor that much into his contract.  And waiting in the end is going to cost more.  He started the season with no serviceable RBs and still has none.  Even before the season I questioned how good the Oline was going to be, and with the injuries it has turned into one of the worst in the league.  The secondary was bad from the beginning and forced the offense to play catch up through most of the season.  The passing game was actually a pleasant surprise and helped keep the team afloat despite all of the injuries. That was before teams figured out the Ravens were fielding a JV Oline that they could blitz through like Germany did to Poland in WWII.  

 

If I was an agent for Lamar Jackson (And I would strongly advise him to get one), if the team came back to me talking about a down year I would basically tell them without my client in the first half of the year, this team would be hopelessly buried behind even the Steelers in this division.  Then I would say it will be fine to play for 24 million next year, but after that don't expect any breaks.  Either pay my client one of the top contracts in the game, which will only go up, or let him walk and sign his own deal with someone else.  Otherwise holdout is very much on the table.  

Agreed on all points. TBH I don't even think DeCosta is thinking he's in for some sort of discount because of what's happened this season. 

[Ravens2006]

Yeah, I highly doubt DeCosta and the front office is somehow hopeful that the one good side effect of Lamar having a handful of "down" games will somehow enable them to keep him long-term at some sort of significant discount.

[Mike in STL]

Allen
Herbert
Burrow
Murray
Lawrence
Tua
Mac Jones
Lance
Hurts

9 QBs I feel good about have been taken in the last 3 years. Maybe some don't pan out. Maybe other guys (Love, Fields, etc.) do. The point is that getting a decent QB isn't that hard for a team that does their homework. Is it hard to find transcendent superstars? Of course, but you don't need one to win a SB, and you better be damned sure Lamar is good enough to carry the team every year without help for the next 8 years before devoting franchise-crippling money to him.

I think you have to look at all the picks. Can't mention Kyler Murray, but not Daniel Jones. If you like Hurts who was a second round pick, gotta mention Drew Lock. In the same 1st round as Allen and Lamar are Mayfield, Darnold, and Rosen. If I run the Browns there is zero chance that I'm making Mayfield the franchise QB. 

 

I'm not trying to get too wrapped up in the Lamar discussion for a few reasons. One, we just don't know how this season ends. He's struggling. Mahomes struggled for five weeks this year, just at a different time. He's rebounded. Does Lamar rebound? We don't know. Two, I kinda fully expect the Ravens to extend him, and the details and structure of the extension will be very important. Three, if the Ravens don't extend him, and he doesn't hold out playing the option year, then we don't have to talk about this for a whole nother year, hopefully 17+ more data points to make said argument with.  

 

Edit: That said, I agree, the Ravens should be scouting QBs. If Lamar isn't a top-5 QB in the league, I don't give him the big time money. But the first round pick this year doesn't need to be a QB. 

[Slidemaster]

I think you have to look at all the picks. Can't mention Kyler Murray, but not Daniel Jones. If you like Hurts who was a second round pick, gotta mention Drew Lock. In the same 1st round as Allen and Lamar are Mayfield, Darnold, and Rosen. If I run the Browns there is zero chance that I'm making Mayfield the franchise QB.

I'm not trying to get too wrapped up in the Lamar discussion for a few reasons. One, we just don't know how this season ends. He's struggling. Mahomes struggled for five weeks this year, just at a different time. He's rebounded. Does Lamar rebound? We don't know. Two, I kinda fully expect the Ravens to extend him, and the details and structure of the extension will be very important. Three, if the Ravens don't extend him, and he doesn't hold out playing the option year, then we don't have to talk about this for a whole nother year, hopefully 17+ more data points to make said argument with.

Edit: That said, I agree, the Ravens should be scouting QBs. If Lamar isn't a top-5 QB in the league, I don't give him the big time money. But the first round pick this year doesn't need to be a QB.

So, I was only mentioning the guys I felt good about from the past 3 years. Obviously some guys missed too, but I think the chances of hitting on a good QB with a top 5 pick is about 50%, and that is basically what the Ravens would have if they really wanted to deal Lamar. Those aren't bad odds, which was my point. They don't HAVE to extend him to have a reasonable way forward. Otherwise I basically agree with you.

With that said I think they will anyway, even if all the data suggests he's trending the wrong direction.

[bmore_ken]

So, I was only mentioning the guys I felt good about from the past 3 years. Obviously some guys missed too, but I think the chances of hitting on a good QB with a top 5 pick is about 50%, and that is basically what the Ravens would have if they really wanted to deal Lamar. Those aren't bad odds, which was my point. They don't HAVE to extend him to have a reasonable way forward. Otherwise I basically agree with you.

With that said I think they will anyway, even if all the data suggests he's trending the wrong direction.

The data is skewed by injuries and a bad O line. Why you conveniently want to ignore that is beyond me. 

[TwentyThirtyFive]

The data is skewed by injuries and a bad O line. Why you conveniently want to ignore that is beyond me.

Hes a hater and has been one since at least this summer when he heard Lamar wasnt vaccinated. Its pretty much to the point where youre having a discussion with RollTide about Lamar.

[Slidemaster]

The data is skewed by injuries and a bad O line. Why you conveniently want to ignore that is beyond me.

I don't want to ignore it. I'm just not going to pretend it's the only reason things are going poorly. It's why I want to see more.

[Slidemaster]

Hes a hater and has been one since at least this summer when he heard Lamar wasnt vaccinated. Its pretty much to the point where youre having a discussion with RollTide about Lamar.

Literally none of my posts indicate that. In fact it was asked if I would would for Lamar if he was vaccinated (and it was rumored he was), and I said I would.

I'm not going to argue with someone who got so hand-wringy he wished football would disappear forever, like a little boy afraid of the dark. Anyone reasonable, even if they disagree with me, would not construe what I'm saying as "hating."

Then again, you're not reasonable.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

Reasonable. Sure. Go through many of the posts in this thread. Some of your thoughts and opinions are ridiculous. Im not sure who Id least want as a GM. Slide for the Ravens or dude for the Os.

[Slidemaster]

Reasonable. Sure. Go through many of the posts in this thread. Some of your thoughts and opinions are ridiculous. Im not sure who Id least want as a GM. Slide for the Ravens or dude for the Os.

You wouldn't want anyone, because you'd be wishing upon a star that football would disappear.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

Not sure why the football going away thing is some gotcha moment for you. I watch and Im entertained enough by the sport but it likely should go away and I wont cry if it does. The toll it puts on a body and the brain is serious shit. It shorten lives or makes living in your golden years hell for way too many men.

[bmore_ken]

I don't want to ignore it. I'm just not going to pretend it's the only reason things are going poorly. It's why I want to see more.

You're ignoring it when you claim he's trending in the wrong direction. Considering the injuries and lack of an O line, he's literally the only reason this team is in first placein the division right now. I can't wait to see your meltdown when he gets his extension this off season.