138 replies to this topic

[MattKory]

BSL: John Means Is Already An Ace, If Not The Ace You’d Like

https://baltimorespo...-ace-youd-like/

[Mackus]

No, he's not.

 

Agree that we're talking about what criteria various people use to define an ace and agree that there is no specifically correct definition, but I would argue that any definition of ace into which Means currently fits is a bad definition.  Just looking at some numbers, since 2019 began among the 70 SP with 200+ IP Means is 57th in IP,  39th in WAR, 25th in ERA, 50th in FIP, and 67th in xFIP.

 

I think it's possible he can ascend to that category, mainly if he can combine the movement and deception of his change up form 2019 with the increased velocity from 2020.  But I can't remotely agree with any argument for him currently being an ace.  4 starts to begin the season doesn't define somebody, and even if did, Means' start, as good as it's been, is completely unremarkable as many other guys have had similarly good starts, which of course they have because it's only three weeks.  Means ranks 20th, 15th, 11th, 21st, and 44th in the same stats as above so far this year.  Being a top-15 or so pitcher overall would make one an ace, IMO, but you'd need to consistently do that over multiple years, at least to the point where that level of performance becomes the expectation and not a surprise.

[BSLChrisStoner]

I think he's doing enough to feel comfortable with looking at him as a front-end starter on a quality team, but he's not what I would define as an ACE. 

I'm sure we will discuss this tonight on The Warehouse, and I suspect based on what Matt has said previously; he generally agrees with that (title aside here).

[BSLSteveBirrer]

Pretty sure there is a big typo in that article. He's got to be on pace for more than 6 wins and I am sure some O's pitcher has had more than 6 in the last 10 years.....

 

Probably 16? 

 

But just pulling your chain. Great article and I actually agree with you. While its no secret I like hard throwers he has shown he can be an exception with his command. Really doesn't matter how you want to define "ace" and really who cares. Bottom line is he's a guy you love to get out there every 5 days.

[Nigel Tufnel]

The season is 1/9 over and he has 1 win, so I think that puts him on pace for a 9-win season.

 

EDIT:  And he's on pace for 10.8 rWAR!  Open up the history books!

[Mackus]

Pretty sure there is a big typo in that article. He's got to be on pace for more than 6 wins and I am sure some O's pitcher has had more than 6 in the last 10 years.....

 

Probably 16? 

 

But just pulling your chain. Great article and I actually agree with you. While its no secret I like hard throwers he has shown he can be an exception with his command. Really doesn't matter how you want to define "ace" and really who cares. Bottom line is he's a guy you love to get out there every 5 days.

 

Six win season = 6 WAR

[BSLSteveBirrer]

Six win season = 6 WAR

Huh? Must be some new math.....

 

If he meant a 6 WAR season great that makes sense. But that ain't what it said.

[Mackus]

Huh? Must be some new math.....

I don't understand?

[BSLSteveBirrer]

I don't understand?

6 wins does not equal 6 WAR

[Mackus]

6 wins does not equal 6 WAR

Yes it does. It's the written out version. Nobody says "wins above replacement".

I get the confusion between WAR and pitcher W/L wins, but WAR is what the article means in this context.

[The Epic]

Geez, are we gonna go back to defining "ace" like we define "clutch" or "bust" now? 

 

I'm just like...if this dude gives me 2 ER or less over 6 or 7 innings, am I shrugging my shoulders and considering it normal course of business? If so, he's an ace.

[Slidemaster]

Means is a really good third starter on a playoff quality rotation. The only reason why we're even having this conversation is because it's been so long since we've seen an ace in Baltimore that we've almost forgotten what they look like.

[Slidemaster]

On an unrelated note, if another team wants to trade for Means with a package that tells me they think he's an ace, I would take it every time.

[BSLMikeLowe]

On an unrelated note, if another team wants to trade for Means with a package that tells me they think he's an ace, I would take it every time.

 

I was going to say something similar; that Means will become an ace right after the Orioles trade him. We can only hope the return they get is commensurate with that.

[The Epic]

On an unrelated note, if another team wants to trade for Means with a package that tells me they think he's an ace, I would take it every time.

 

Yeah, no arguments here!

[BSLChrisStoner]

I think he's doing enough to feel comfortable with looking at him as a front-end starter on a quality team, but he's not what I would define as an ACE. 

I'm sure we will discuss this tonight on The Warehouse, and I suspect based on what Matt has said previously; he generally agrees with that (title aside here).

 

Yep. 

 

https://forum.baltim...arly-takeaways/

[bmore_ken]

The definition of an ace must have changed while I wasn't paying attention. 

[RShack]

The definition of an ace must have changed while I wasn't paying attention. 

 

Let's hope the author of this piece didn't also author the headline... because the headline is nothing but BS...

[russsnyder]

At very least, Means is a " stopper" at this point in his career.

[BSLChrisStoner]

He's the ace of this staff but not a true ace, but that's fine...there are only a handful of true aces. What he is showing is that he could be a good 2/3 for anyone.

He regularly gives you a chance to win.