49 replies to this topic

[Mike B]

It's only "right" to slash payroll like this if you're then going to overspend your revenues later.  Barring that (and I'm more confident in the flat-Earthers being right than I am in the Orioles banking this saved money to spend later), keeping Cobb would have helped the future teams exactly as much (none at all) as Jones will unless he happens to hit a 90th percentile type projection.  I'm not against this particular move, it's fine, but it has almost no chance of helping us in the future and shouldn't be thought of as part of some master rebuilding plan.  It's not.

 

Cashing in current assets for potential future assets is a smart thing to do if you don't think you can contend currently.  I'm on board with that and trading away everyone going back to Manny is fine.  However the salary dumps done solely to increase the Angelos profit margin with no meaningful potential future assets returning annoys the hell out of me.  If I thought there was future benefit to the team and us and fans for being this low of payroll, I'd be fine with it.  But I don't think that.  I'm utterly convinced that it's just extra helicopter rides for the Angeloses.  It's not an investment in the future of baseball.

Gold star on this one.   Totally agree.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

It's only "right" to slash payroll like this if you're then going to overspend your revenues later. Barring that (and I'm more confident in the flat-Earthers being right than I am in the Orioles banking this saved money to spend later), keeping Cobb would have helped the future teams exactly as much (none at all) as Jones will unless he happens to hit a 90th percentile type projection. I'm not against this particular move, it's fine, but it has almost no chance of helping us in the future and shouldn't be thought of as part of some master rebuilding plan. It's not.

Cashing in current assets for potential future assets is a smart thing to do if you don't think you can contend currently. I'm on board with that and trading away everyone going back to Manny is fine. However the salary dumps done solely to increase the Angelos profit margin with no meaningful potential future assets returning annoys the hell out of me. If I thought there was future benefit to the team and us and fans for being this low of payroll, I'd be fine with it. But I don't think that. I'm utterly convinced that it's just extra helicopter rides for the Angeloses. It's not an investment in the future of baseball.

Nobody thinks this is some part of a master rebuilding plan. I still fail to see why this would make anyone lose faith in a rebuild. Elias is doing it right because of things like Int signings, big steps forward in player development and scouting, etc.



Still, I just don't understand getting bent out of shape over trading guys like Iglesias and Cobb. 30 something meh vets who were under contract for 1 more year. I dont care that its a salary dump. I dont care that the returning player likely isnt going to make a significant contribution to the big club in future years. I know for a fact that Iglesias and Cobb wont so Ill take my 10% or 5% or 2% on guys like Stallings and Jones.


Id understand more if people were getting annoyed if this was say the Bundy trade last year. A 20 something with multiple years of team control left and a bit of potential if the new regime could tap into it.

[Old Man]

Nobody thinks this is some part of a master rebuilding plan. I still fail to see why this would make anyone lose faith in a rebuild. Elias is doing it right because of things like Int signings, big steps forward in player development and scouting, etc.



Still, I just don't understand getting bent out of shape over trading guys like Iglesias and Cobb. 30 something meh vets who were under contract for 1 more year. I dont care that its a salary dump. I dont care that the returning player likely isnt going to make a significant contribution to the big club in future years. I know for a fact that Iglesias and Cobb wont so Ill take my 10% or 5% or 2% on guys like Stallings and Jones.


Id understand more if people were getting annoyed if this was say the Bundy trade last year. A 20 something with multiple years of team control left and a bit of potential if the new regime could tap into it.

How long do you keep playing the slash payroll card, and not add any pieces to what you are developing?

 

When we first started this process, the expectation was 2021, so covid push that back.

 

I dont think anybody thinks this team will be ready to by 2022 or even 2023.

 

Lets trade away an arm and pay his salary for another team, and not get anybody back that moves the needle at all.

[Mike B]

Nobody thinks this is some part of a master rebuilding plan. I still fail to see why this would make anyone lose faith in a rebuild. Elias is doing it right because of things like Int signings, big steps forward in player development and scouting, etc.



Still, I just don't understand getting bent out of shape over trading guys like Iglesias and Cobb. 30 something meh vets who were under contract for 1 more year. I dont care that its a salary dump. I dont care that the returning player likely isnt going to make a significant contribution to the big club in future years. I know for a fact that Iglesias and Cobb wont so Ill take my 10% or 5% or 2% on guys like Stallings and Jones.


Id understand more if people were getting annoyed if this was say the Bundy trade last year. A 20 something with multiple years of team control left and a bit of potential if the new regime could tap into it.

I am a broken record, but my issue is really not that this rebuild is not going to work.  My issue, is with the exception of maybe the Givens trade, we have not won, one of these deals.  I honestly do not believe we have come close to maximizing a return on any of the deals.  I believe other teams realize the Orioles main goal right now is to cut cost and they are getting usable players at a dirt cheap price.

I detest the idea that a team like the Orioles, can tank for 3 or 4 years.  It IMO, mocks what a competitve enviroment should be.  

[BobPhelan]

I dont think anybody thinks this team will be ready to by 2022 or even 2023.

I do. I think 2022 we will be around .500 and 2023 will be very fun.

[BobPhelan]

I am a broken record, but my issue is really not that this rebuild is not going to work. My issue, is with the exception of maybe the Givens trade, we have not won, one of these deals. I honestly do not believe we have come close to maximizing a return on any of the deals. I believe other teams realize the Orioles main goal right now is to cut cost and they are getting usable players at a dirt cheap price.
I detest the idea that a team like the Orioles, can tank for 3 or 4 years. It IMO, mocks what a competitve enviroment should be.

Strongly disagree. My favorite trade was Castro (an essentially nothing reliever) for a legit back end of the rotation starter prospect close to the majors in Kevin Smith.

You mentioned the Givens trade, we got two guys back (one of which is in the 30-40 range on our list) for Tommy Milone of all people. Got something for nothing in the Cashner, Cobb, and Hector Velazquez trades. I even think we did well in the Bundy deal at the time before he broke out in 2020.

The only trade we’ve lost is the Villar trade unless I’m forgetting something. And I still hate losing Pop for nothing.

[makoman]

I am a broken record, but my issue is really not that this rebuild is not going to work.  My issue, is with the exception of maybe the Givens trade, we have not won, one of these deals.  I honestly do not believe we have come close to maximizing a return on any of the deals.  I believe other teams realize the Orioles main goal right now is to cut cost and they are getting usable players at a dirt cheap price.

I detest the idea that a team like the Orioles, can tank for 3 or 4 years.  It IMO, mocks what a competitve enviroment should be.  

The problem with the trades is that there wasn't a whole lot to be won when your assets are Tommy Millone and Richard Bleier. Or Cashner or Cobb or Villar when they are coming with overpaid salaries. The Givens trade seemed fine as you said, and the Castro trade seemed good to me. Then there's Bundy which seemed like a dud at the time, but we still haven't really seen any of the pieces so I'll keep an open mind. That's the big one though which will make or break how we think of Elias and his trades.

[Mike B]

The problem with the trades is that there wasn't a whole lot to be won when your assets are Tommy Millone and Richard Bleier. Or Cashner or Cobb or Villar when they are coming with overpaid salaries. The Givens trade seemed fine as you said, and the Castro trade seemed good to me. Then there's Bundy which seemed like a dud at the time, but we still haven't really seen any of the pieces so I'll keep an open mind. That's the big one though which will make or break how we think of Elias and his trades.

I agree with most of what you are saying which leads me to my main aggravation.  If you are not getting anything of value back, then why not keep the players??  Everyone knows the answer.  In part it is to cut money, but the main reason, is we are planning to lose.  We read in the Sun, and MASN that we can not spend on this pitcher or that position player, because it is too rich for the Orioles in their rebuild.  When I see these deals and when I hear Elias, explain them like we are all stupid, I come to the realization that he controls when we emerge from tank mode.  It is not this year and after we lose another 100 or so games it is not going to be next.  It disgusts me, that a franchise I grew up on thinks it is is okay to toss 3, 4 or 5 years, in hopes that we can compete circa 2023/24.

 

I apologize for being a broken record!

[Old Man]

Strongly disagree. My favorite trade was Castro (an essentially nothing reliever) for a legit back end of the rotation starter prospect close to the majors in Kevin Smith.

You mentioned the Givens trade, we got two guys back (one of which is in the 30-40 range on our list) for Tommy Milone of all people. Got something for nothing in the Cashner, Cobb, and Hector Velazquez trades. I even think we did well in the Bundy deal at the time before he broke out in 2020.

The only trade we’ve lost is the Villar trade unless I’m forgetting something. And I still hate losing Pop for nothing.

I hope you are right, I really would take no pleasure in being right.

 

just my optimism has been fading and Im too old for another 14 year period of inept baseball. Im not saying Elias is inept, he came on board, made lots of changes, and we knew more was to come, what is this year 3 of the rebuild?

[Mike B]

Strongly disagree. My favorite trade was Castro (an essentially nothing reliever) for a legit back end of the rotation starter prospect close to the majors in Kevin Smith.

You mentioned the Givens trade, we got two guys back (one of which is in the 30-40 range on our list) for Tommy Milone of all people. Got something for nothing in the Cashner, Cobb, and Hector Velazquez trades. I even think we did well in the Bundy deal at the time before he broke out in 2020.

The only trade we’ve lost is the Villar trade unless I’m forgetting something. And I still hate losing Pop for nothing.

Fair enough, and I should have mentioned the Castro deal.  I don't agree with some of your assesment on some of the guys dealt being nothing players, mainly because we have either not replaced them or replaced them with guys who are just not MLB players.  I am done with hearing we can not get this guy, because we are in a rebuild.  We can agree to disagree. 

[dude]

This is the first time they've ever done a rebuild right.

I don't know how to import images, but there was supposed to be one of a train running off the tracks into the gorge here.

...I have some thoughts....nevermind....

[TwentyThirtyFive]

How long do you keep playing the slash payroll card, and not add any pieces to what you are developing?

When we first started this process, the expectation was 2021, so covid push that back.

I dont think anybody thinks this team will be ready to by 2022 or even 2023.

Lets trade away an arm and pay his salary for another team, and not get anybody back that moves the needle at all.

The farm system is now becoming deeper and more highly ranked. When this rebuild started in '18 who was in the farm system then or who did we acquire then that was supposed to be producing in the bigs right now? Hall, Rodriguez,Mountcastle, Hays, Diaz were all quite young and or had very little time in pro ball. We pretty much started from scratch. We had one real asset at the time and that was Machado. If you want to complain about real payroll slashing complain about what Duquette did with guys like Gausman and Britton. Britton had more value than Tate and Carroll. At best two mid RP arms. The Gaus trade was especially bad. Nothing back in that trade for a 20 something arm with multiple years of team control. If Trey were to be traded and the return subpar Ill complain. If in 2 or 3 years guys like Mountcastle, Hays, Kremer etc have established themselves as solid regs and instead of looking to pay them in arb or extend them we are looking to move them then Ill be pissed. When the farm starts producing legit regulars and we still aren't looking to supplement, extend, and build around that base then Im out for good. We aren't there yet and anyone who thought we would be there in '21 was fooling themselves. Especially, with the lost season that was '20.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

I am a broken record, but my issue is really not that this rebuild is not going to work. My issue, is with the exception of maybe the Givens trade, we have not won, one of these deals. I honestly do not believe we have come close to maximizing a return on any of the deals. I believe other teams realize the Orioles main goal right now is to cut cost and they are getting usable players at a dirt cheap price.
I detest the idea that a team like the Orioles, can tank for 3 or 4 years. It IMO, mocks what a competitve enviroment should be.

Cant disagree more. I think Elias has done a good job of trading marginal- average MLB talents with no longterm value here for guys that are top 25 in a deep and good farm system.

[dude]

The farm system is now becoming deeper and more highly ranked. 

Cant disagree more. I think Elias has done a good job of trading marginal- average MLB talents with no longterm value here for guys that are in the top 25 of a deep and good farm system.

 

You said they are finally rebuilding the 'right way'.  

 

You bailed on the discussion in the other thread (I didn't pursue it at the time, the Ravens had just lost, I get it, you were occupied over there), but when I say "80% out", the reality is that I could have most all of the guys that have been accumulated if I wanted them, regardless of the Orioles approach to winning at the ML level.  The unique thing we've added is Kjerstad.  The 5th pick this season will be unique too.

 

Adley Rutschman is not a product of 'rebuilding' (neither was Carlos Correa, neither was Javy Baez).  If the Orioles had won the WS in 2019, we'd still have Rutschman, Henderson and Westburg in the system.  All the other stuff you like (scouting, analytics, development, IFA) would all be the same.

 

My point (one of them) in the Negative Value piece was that you could/should be doing that ALL the time.  That can be part of any approach and has zero to do with winning or losing.  It's leveraging opportunity out there to accomplish whatever it is you want to accomplish.  Everything has a cost, that's why you have to execute a Plan, everything has to fit.

 

You are telling us you love the accumulation of assets under Elias (right?) but that accumulation hasn't changed the win total in any year. This statement is actually two-fold, both in the quality (specific to the players acquired) and the quantity (any or most - even more - of these guys could have been acquired regardless)

[TwentyThirtyFive]

You said they are finally rebuilding the 'right way'.

You bailed on the discussion in the other thread (I didn't pursue it at the time, the Ravens had just lost, I get it, you were occupied over there), but when I say "80% out", the reality is that I could have most all of the guys that have been accumulated if I wanted them, regardless of the Orioles approach to winning at the ML level. The unique thing we've added is Kjerstad. The 5th pick this season will be unique too.

Adley Rutschman is not a product of 'rebuilding' (neither was Carlos Correa, neither was Javy Baez). If the Orioles had won the WS in 2019, we'd still have Rutschman, Henderson and Westburg in the system. All the other stuff you like (scouting, analytics, development, IFA) would all be the same.

My point (one of them) in the Negative Value piece was that you could/should be doing that ALL the time. That can be part of any approach and has zero to do with winning or losing. It's leveraging opportunity out there to accomplish whatever it is you want to accomplish. Everything has a cost, that's why you have to execute a Plan, everything has to fit.

You are telling us you love the accumulation of assets under Elias (right?) but that accumulation hasn't changed the win total in any year. This statement is actually two-fold, both in the quality (specific to the players acquired) and the quantity (any or most - even more - of these guys could have been acquired regardless)

I agree that the improvements in scouting, player development, etc made under Elias could and should be the same whether the payroll is 50 mil or 200 mil. Have never argued otherwise. I just understand that the Os are not going to spend like a big market team and aren't going to spend like a mid market team even if they technically are mid market. I think they're legit one of the lowest revenue generating teams in baseball but I dont care to debate that because it ultimately doesnt matter. Under the Angelos regime we're going to act like a small market team. Period. The only issue I have with what I've seen from your approach is you'd trade a lot of our young cost controlled assets for overpaid, older 1-3 WAR guys who arent going to make any real difference year over year until we have a core that is mostly developed in house . Once we establish a core Im for making some of types the acquisitions you propose. Though I do think you undervalue what it would take to acquire some of these guys.

[Ravens2006]

I'm sure this is going to wander a bit, my apologies...

 

Again, scratched record cynicism here... but I'm sort of at the point where I almost don't care about the farm system's "ranking".  I know, there's a crowd that will laugh at the overwhelming stupidity of that narrow-minded sentiment. 

 

I say almost because, well, sure... it's nice to hear they're supposedly stockpiling prospects.  Better than not I suppose.  But, with the manner in which the Orioles / Elias are currently approaching it, it comes at the "expense", or trade-off, or whatever we want to call it... of flat out, completely, blatantly ignoring the regular season fortunes of the major league club for X number of years.  Nobody really knows what the value of X is.  And we're supposed to be okay with it.  We can hypothesize that they're going to "hit" on a high percentage of these guys, and in a year or three or five, they'll be contending for division, AL, and WS titles again.  Maybe.  I hope so.  I really do.  What frustrates me is the hype / spin that it's a foregone conclusion that "it will work".  Or that it's inarguably the "best way" to go about it.  It might not work.  I mean, for every prospect / highly ranked prospect that's become at least a serviceable major league regular, there are many many more who never get there for whatever reason.  Some flaw in their game that they never get over to succeed at the top level, mis-use, poor evaluation / labeling, injury, drive / motivation, you name it...

 

I used to be one of those guys who knew every name in the system, followed their progress, saw 3 or 4 quality starts in a row from some dude in AA as a harbinger of future ML All-Star appearances, etc.  It's been more than a few years now since I invested that much attention in that stuff.  I know that for most of the last two decades, the overall system perception has ranged anywhere from mediocre at best, to atrocious at worst... and usually closer to the latter.

 

But here's the thing... the vast majority of "fans" are fans of the major league team, and have a slight vested interest in the minors.  The lack of success (or arguably competence) at the major league level for MOST of the last  23 regular seasons, sort of leaves me soundly in the "show me first" category before I believe or buy in to anything really.  That's probably true for the vast majority.  And that vast majority is what drives ticket sales, TV ratings, merchandise sales, advertising revenue, etc.

 

Alex Cobb isn't a likely future (or past) Cy Young winner, and nobody to cry over losing (most likely).  And it's a little hypocritical to say this in light of my soon-to-come point... but if someone gave me free tickets to go watch the Orioles play someone and he was on the hill that night, well, at least he has a track record of competency on the hill.  I might go with a little more optimism.  A guy who is a career 16-11 with a 3.40-ish ERA vs BOS and NYY... okay, if he has his stuff that night, they have a chance.  I want to go when they "have a chance".  I don't demand playoff births or titles, I demand a good faith effort to field a team that has a chance.  Granted, we also know that he posted a career 3.50 ERA and 1.21 WHIP prior to wearing our orange and black, and transformed to a 5.10 ERA and a 1.42 WHIP in the colors.  Which is almost the expectation now... but I don't want this Alex Cobb point in the Alex Cobb thread to become bigger than I really mean it to be. 

 

Where was their farm system ranked prior to the brief return to contention in 2012?  I don't recall it being very highly touted overall, I really don't.  Maybe I'm wrong?  I recall a smattering of home-grown players, and a handful of trade / FA acquisitions forming a solid core.  And they carpet bombed the leftover / strectch FA market where a few bats / arms paid short-term dividends.  They averaged 89 wins a year over 5 years.  Fun times.  Now, had they also invested more in the international market, scouting, etc. back then too, maybe the organization wouldn't have been left aging and almost barren when the gas ran out on that group.  I'm not going to belabor the "who did more to make that happen" debate... only pointing out that they didn't need to basically flush every single quality major league player they had to save money and plant a billion seeds... to become a legit, competent, competitive team for a handful of years.

 

I see a bit of chicken vs. egg situation too... let's say they have a handful of prospects hit the major league level and start to produce in, oh, 2023?  How quickly do we think the fans are going to start pouring back in to the park?  Ignoring COVID for a minute, or let's assume it is a non-issue by fall (2021 is a wash there).  Their attendance in 2019 topped only Tampa and Miami on average, and while I can't prove it... I'd bet a lot that 30-40% of those seats sold were empty every night, just statistics in a batch of long-held corporate ticket plans that nobody was using.  So... when it comes time for the Orioles to "spend more" to supplement this hypothetical core of saviors... does the excuse then become "Well, we haven't seen the ticket sales we need to spend more money"?  Note, they are really eager to embrace their "small market" label while ignoring the larger market they still mostly own the lion's share of thanks to MASN.  What has to happen for them to draw 2 million again?  Or 2.4 to 2.6 million, like they did in 2005 & 2013/14, with the Nationals existing down the parkway?  Can they generate enough excitement first to bring the fans back, to allow them to follow through on the veiled promise of "spending later"?

[Old Man]

The farm system is now becoming deeper and more highly ranked. When this rebuild started in '18 who was in the farm system then or who did we acquire then that was supposed to be producing in the bigs right now? Hall, Rodriguez,Mountcastle, Hays, Diaz were all quite young and or had very little time in pro ball. We pretty much started from scratch. We had one real asset at the time and that was Machado. If you want to complain about real payroll slashing complain about what Duquette did with guys like Gausman and Britton. Britton had more value than Tate and Carroll. At best two mid RP arms. The Gaus trade was especially bad. Nothing back in that trade for a 20 something arm with multiple years of team control. If Trey were to be traded and the return subpar Ill complain. If in 2 or 3 years guys like Mountcastle, Hayes, Kremer etc have established themselves as solid regs and instead of looking to pay them in arb or extend them we are looking to move them then Ill be pissed. When the farm starts producing legit regulars and we still aren't looking to supplement, extend, and build around that base then Im out for good. We aren't there yet and anyone who thought we would be there in '21 was fooling themselves. Especially, with the lost season that was '20.

You make valid points.

 

There is not enough arms in the minors at this point, that tells its, spending 10 mil for Cobb to pitch for the Angels, opens up a slot for a young emerging SP.

 

I get that payroll needed to be made at the beginning of the rebuild, and I have no problem with that.

 

But, it appears that every decision these days is $$$$ driven that is a concern to me.

 

I care about the minor league system, and it has grown out of the dumpster it was, but at some point, when do we start seeing the fruit arrive at the parent club?

[TwentyThirtyFive]

I'm sure this is going to wander a bit, my apologies...

Again, scratched record cynicism here... but I'm sort of at the point where I almost don't care about the farm system's "ranking". I know, there's a crowd that will laugh at the overwhelming stupidity of that narrow-minded sentiment.

I say almost because, well, sure... it's nice to hear they're supposedly stockpiling prospects. Better than not I suppose. But, with the manner in which the Orioles / Elias are currently approaching it, it comes at the "expense", or trade-off, or whatever we want to call it... of flat out, completely, blatantly ignoring the regular season fortunes of the major league club for X number of years. Nobody really knows what the value of X is. And we're supposed to be okay with it. We can hypothesize that they're going to "hit" on a high percentage of these guys, and in a year or three or five, they'll be contending for division, AL, and WS titles again. Maybe. I hope so. I really do. What frustrates me is the hype / spin that it's a foregone conclusion that "it will work". Or that it's inarguably the "best way" to go about it. It might not work. I mean, for every prospect / highly ranked prospect that's become at least a serviceable major league regular, there are many many more who never get there for whatever reason. Some flaw in their game that they never get over to succeed at the top level, mis-use, poor evaluation / labeling, injury, drive / motivation, you name it...

I used to be one of those guys who knew every name in the system, followed their progress, saw 3 or 4 quality starts in a row from some dude in AA as a harbinger of future ML All-Star appearances, etc. It's been more than a few years now since I invested that much attention in that stuff. I know that for most of the last two decades, the overall system perception has ranged anywhere from mediocre at best, to atrocious at worst... and usually closer to the latter.

But here's the thing... the vast majority of "fans" are fans of the major league team, and have a slight vested interest in the minors. The lack of success (or arguably competence) at the major league level for MOST of the last 23 regular seasons, sort of leaves me soundly in the "show me first" category before I believe or buy in to anything really. That's probably true for the vast majority. And that vast majority is what drives ticket sales, TV ratings, merchandise sales, advertising revenue, etc.

Alex Cobb isn't a likely future (or past) Cy Young winner, and nobody to cry over losing (most likely). And it's a little hypocritical to say this in light of my soon-to-come point... but if someone gave me free tickets to go watch the Orioles play someone and he was on the hill that night, well, at least he has a track record of competency on the hill. I might go with a little more optimism. A guy who is a career 16-11 with a 3.40-ish ERA vs BOS and NYY... okay, if he has his stuff that night, they have a chance. I want to go when they "have a chance". I don't demand playoff births or titles, I demand a good faith effort to field a team that has a chance. Granted, we also know that he posted a career 3.50 ERA and 1.21 WHIP prior to wearing our orange and black, and transformed to a 5.10 ERA and a 1.42 WHIP in the colors. Which is almost the expectation now... but I don't want this Alex Cobb point in the Alex Cobb thread to become bigger than I really mean it to be.

Where was their farm system ranked prior to the brief return to contention in 2012? I don't recall it being very highly touted overall, I really don't. Maybe I'm wrong? I recall a smattering of home-grown players, and a handful of trade / FA acquisitions forming a solid core. And they carpet bombed the leftover / strectch FA market where a few bats / arms paid short-term dividends. They averaged 89 wins a year over 5 years. Fun times. Now, had they also invested more in the international market, scouting, etc. back then too, maybe the organization wouldn't have been left aging and almost barren when the gas ran out on that group. I'm not going to belabor the "who did more to make that happen" debate... only pointing out that they didn't need to basically flush every single quality major league player they had to save money and plant a billion seeds... to become a legit, competent, competitive team for a handful of years.

I see a bit of chicken vs. egg situation too... let's say they have a handful of prospects hit the major league level and start to produce in, oh, 2023? How quickly do we think the fans are going to start pouring back in to the park? Ignoring COVID for a minute, or let's assume it is a non-issue by fall (2021 is a wash there). Their attendance in 2019 topped only Tampa and Miami on average, and while I can't prove it... I'd bet a lot that 30-40% of those seats sold were empty every night, just statistics in a batch of long-held corporate ticket plans that nobody was using. So... when it comes time for the Orioles to "spend more" to supplement this hypothetical core of saviors... does the excuse then become "Well, we haven't seen the ticket sales we need to spend more money"? Note, they are really eager to embrace their "small market" label while ignoring the larger market they still mostly own the lion's share of thanks to MASN. What has to happen for them to draw 2 million again? Or 2.4 to 2.6 million, like they did in 2005 & 2013/14, with the Nationals existing down the parkway? Can they generate enough excitement first to bring the fans back, to allow them to follow through on the veiled promise of "spending later"?

In this day if you don't have a core that mostly comes from in house you dont have much of a chance. The most valuable asset in MLB right now is young cost controlled players. So yeah there is no guaruntees this works out but its not going to work out for any team if they can't develop enough in house talent.


That said, I totally get if you pay for a ticket preferring to see Cobb out there giving you a chance to win that night vs Tom Eshellman. The AAA -AAAA guys arent fun to watch or invest in. I will have much more interest and more invested once some of these younger more highly regarded guys start playing up here.


So whats the solution people want. Im not sure exactly where our payroll was from '98 the mid 2000s but Im pretty sure we were never in the bottom 1/3 of baseball. They were active in FA often year over year. They never played a significant game in Sept for all those years. So yeah it was fun on a particular night when you could go watch BJ Surhoff, Albert Belle, Pat Hentgen, Miguel Tejada, Javy Lopez, etc play vs AAAA guys but I was just as done with the team by the time Ravens training camp started just the same as I was in 2019.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

You make valid points.

There is not enough arms in the minors at this point, that tells its, spending 10 mil for Cobb to pitch for the Angels, opens up a slot for a young emerging SP.

I get that payroll needed to be made at the beginning of the rebuild, and I have no problem with that.

But, it appears that every decision these days is $$$$ driven that is a concern to me.

I care about the minor league system, and it has grown out of the dumpster it was, but at some point, when do we start seeing the fruit arrive at the parent club?

To be clear Im not defending the penny pinching and I understand the concern about it. I just understand that thats how its going to be and its also not an outlier in pro sports anymore. Tanking is here to stay.

[Mackus]

So whats the solution people want.

 

Speaking for myself, I'd like to see short term money spent so that there is a legitimate MLB player or a legitimate intriguing young player in every spot.  Don't tank by filling half your playing time with AAAA or worse types who are both clearly not MLB quality and have no realistic hopes of ever becoming so.

 

You can get position players who belong in the league on modest 1-year deals.  You can get some backend SP as well, or for no more than 2-year commitments.

 

I'm totally fine watching guys like Akin or Hays even if they are struggling.  That's ok.  But I don't wanna watch guys like Mike Wright get 25 starts.  Rio Ruiz and Dwight Smith type guys I can do without.  Sure, it's possible that those type guys do ok for a year (Alberto, Nunez) or the MLB stopgaps you sign suck (many examples).  Frankly it's going to happen in both cases a decent amount of the time.  But if you've got 8 of your key spots going to AAAA guys versus mediocre but actually MLB caliber guys, I think that shows up both in the everyday product and the overall general feeling about the team.