49 replies to this topic

[TwentyThirtyFive]

Let me ask this question to dude and whoever else has an opinion that differs from the route we took. We went into 2018 still trying to contend. It obviously fell apart with many older and or ineffective players on the roster and a farm system ranked in the lower third in all of baseball. Broadly speaking what would you have done differently than what DD/Elias has done the last 2 and a half years. You had little to no talent in the organization over the age of 20 outside of Manny Machado. He was the only real asset we had. I just dont know what was supposed to be different the last 2 years.

[Mackus]

Don't intentionally try to lose games a year.  Try to patch enough of the holes that you have a team that is just normal bad and not historically, unwatchably bad.  I'm not holding on to hope that we can somehow contend with that type of roster.  I just want to be good (more accurately, not horrible) enough that I actually want to watch most nights.

 

Everything else largely the same.  The moves they've actually made are fine (some I think good, some I think bad, overall collective is fine).  It's just incomplete in terms of being a good faith attempt at fielding a major league roster.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

Speaking for myself, I'd like to see short term money spent so that there is a legitimate MLB player or a legitimate intriguing young player in every spot. Don't tank by filling half your playing time with AAAA or worse types who are both clearly not MLB quality and have no realistic hopes of ever becoming so.

You can get position players who belong in the league on modest 1-year deals. You can get some backend SP as well, or for no more than 2-year commitments.

I'm totally fine watching guys like Akin or Hays even if they are struggling. That's ok. But I don't wanna watch guys like Mike Wright get 25 starts. Rio Ruiz and Dwight Smith type guys I can do without. Sure, it's possible that those type guys do ok for a year (Alberto, Nunez) or the MLB stopgaps you sign suck (many examples). Frankly it's going to happen in both cases a decent amount of the time. But if you've got 8 of your key spots going to AAAA guys versus mediocre but actually MLB caliber guys, I think that shows up both in the everyday product and the overall general feeling about the team.

Totally fine with this as long as its solely FA money or a trade that doesn't take any real prospects from the system. Will say that its not going to be easy to get a Kluber, Scwarber or Joc Peterson type guy to sign here for a year over a team more likely to contend but Im good with trying.

[BSLChrisStoner]

Only thing different I want at this point is to go all in on the AAA arms vs Felix and LeBlanc.


Also I would have and did advocate for 1 year contracts which could potentially make the 21 team better.

Next offseason I'll be ready to see acquisitions (trade or FA) based on winning.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

Don't intentionally try to lose games a year. Try to patch enough of the holes that you have a team that is just normal bad and not historically, unwatchably bad. I'm not holding on to hope that we can somehow contend with that type of roster. I just want to be good (more accurately, not horrible) enough that I actually want to watch most nights.

Everything else largely the same. The moves they've actually made are fine (some I think good, some I think bad, overall collective is fine). It's just incomplete in terms of being a good faith attempt at fielding a major league roster.

Again fine with this approach but when youre clearly not a contender you need to take the opportunities to trade(when they return top 20 talent in a deep system) the types of vets you want filling out the roster.

[Mackus]

Again fine with this approach but when youre clearly not a contender you need to take the opportunities to trade(when they return top 20 talent in a deep system) the types of vets you want filling out the roster.

 

Sure.  Signing more vets to your roster makes it more likely that you get to make these sorts of trades

[TwentyThirtyFive]

Only thing different I want at this point is to go all in on the AAA arms vs Felix and LeBlanc.


Also I would have and did advocate for 1 year contracts which could potentially make the 21 team better.

Next offseason I'll be ready to see acquisitions (trade or FA) based on winning.

Hopefully by July the arms at AAA will be performing well enough to get the call. Have no problem not going with them out of ST. Maybe LeBlanc or Hernandez is pulling a Tommy Milone and net you a similar return.

[dude]

Let me ask this question to dude and whoever else has an opinion that differs from the route we took. We went into 2018 still trying to contend. It obviously fell apart with many older and or ineffective players on the roster and a farm system ranked in the lower third in all of baseball. Broadly speaking what would you have done differently than what DD/Elias has done the last 2 and a half years. You had little to no talent in the organization over the age of 20 outside of Manny Machado. He was the only real asset we had. I just dont know what was supposed to be different the last 2 years.

 

I've debated with myself how far to go answering this question.

 

I think the bolded/underlined above is wrong in it's representation of the challenge.

 

I couldn't find a thread we discussed this in several years ago (I think it was in the Spring of '19), I've discussed it several times since, but you appear to be in the mindset that the process of the last 2 years changes some opportunity in the future.  I disagree with that.  What we did in those years has little to do with the opportunity in the future.

 

The Orioles opportunity to win in the future hasn't gone up meaningfully in the future, you've just divorced yourself from caring about the current.

 

What would I do?  Compete.  You've limited yourself many times to thinking the Angeloses will do whatever the Agenloses do.  OK, but 'rebuilding the right way' doesn't fix the problem.  I'd do most if not all of the stuff that Elias is doing.  Remember when Leo Mazzone was supposed to fix everything?  It's just not that easy.  Winning is hard because, in theory, 30 teams are competing.  Every night you win or lose... x 162.  If 30 teams are competing for the WS, 29 of them will be disappointed - by definition.  

 

#1 Minor League System in Baltimore will serve Mike Elias well over his next 30+ years in the sport.  It will be the top bullet on his resume forever.  ....but there are no trophies for the #1 Minor League System.  You've been sold a theory where you get a trophy for your minor league system.  You are winning with accumulation.  You get the excitement of drafting a future cornerstone.....while some other team is actually putting hardware on a shelf.

 

You don't experience the disappointment of the other competing teams because you chose not to compete.  You actually got to 'win' by losing.

 

You want me to guarantee winning?  Can't do it.  I guarantee I'd compete.  Have a Plan for Win Now and Win Later.  I'd market.  Sell tickets. There's all kinds of opportunity every season to do things to create opportunity …but my Elite Talent Pipeline isn't, in intent, any different than what Elias is telling he's doing, the difference being when I don't roll over and tell you to have low expectations, you judge me on higher expectations (see: Brody VanW).  Elias lowered your expectations to nothing and you rolled over and started counting ceiling tiles.  

 

The Cubs Championship in '16 or the Astros Championship in '17 isn't because they 'rebuilt the right way'.  They want you to believe that though, and hey, you do.  80% in AND 80% out is all the opportunity later of 100% in OR 100% out...but I don't have to quit on any season to do it.

[dude]

...and for the record, I don't think anything we're doing today has squat to do with anything other than the Angelos family has a different short-term challenge.

[Nigel Tufnel]

MannyKay: Based on your positive comments about Jahmai Jones’ potential, is it fair to say the Orioles won that trade in your opinion?
Keith Law: Yes, no-brainer for them. I love Jones and think he’ll thrive there