2525 replies to this topic

[Huddle It Up Films]

I feel like the offense will look different to even the average observer.

 

Much less read option. Fewer 2 TE sets and more 11 personnel (3WR). Higher percentage of pass plays. The middle of our line is a strength now and because of that I see more of a traditional power run game. We also have two WRs, Bateman & Watkins, who can run  slants, win one-on-ones and pick up easy yards when needed. 

 

I don't think our personnel moves and coaching additions this offseason were coincidental. It seems clear to me that everyone from the front office down to the coaching staff wants to evolve the offense. I disagree with Jamie and do think it's possible the Ravens won't be #1 in rush yards. It's for the same reason I don't think we'll be last in passing yards. And if all of that does happen, the offense will be better off for it.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

Off-season talk is always intriguing to me. The hand wringing over the Ravens offense is a bit over the top in my opinion. Still the best rushing team in the league and there's no drop off in sight there. A top 3 scoring offense the last 2 years, no reason to believe that will get dramatically worse.

Obviously, the passing game is what is being discussed to death and the Ravens being last in passing yards and last in receptions by WRs is what's pointed out. However, we were also last in the league in attempts and highest the drop rate in the league. I get that we need more/better production from the passing game but I don't think any kind of dramatic changes are needed. Adding talent like Watkins and Bateman should be a big boost and perhaps some schematic tweaks to avoid those poor route combos we see from time to time. More importantly for me is simply making the most of opportunities. Like, when the ball hits you in the hands, catch the damn thing.

The offense was still very efficient last year despite some of the issues everyone knows and talks about. If they try to do something drastic to the identity of their offense they are asking for trouble. Dont think they will.

[Huddle It Up Films]

The offense was still very efficient last year despite some of the issues everyone knows and talks about. If they try to do something drastic to the identity of their offense they are asking for trouble. Dont think they will.

 

So you don't think we will or should throw the ball more?

 

I definitely think we should and am pretty sure we will. Generally speaking (w/o getting too specific) Hollywood & Andrews will be targeted about the same as last year, maybe a little less. But Bateman and Watkins will have a lot more targets than Boykin, Dez and company. Duvernay will get his gadget touches too.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

So you don't think we will or should throw the ball more?

I definitely think we should and am pretty sure we will. Generally speaking (w/o getting too specific) Hollywood & Andrews will be targeted about the same as last year, maybe a little less. But Bateman and Watkins will have a lot more targets than Boykin, Dez and company. Duvernay will get his gadget touches too.

We shouldnt change our identity offensively. I cant put a number on how often we should be throwing more or how much would be too much but the identity needs to stay the same. Run sets up pass. We control the ball and TOP. I think I can safely say that ideally Lamar isnt throwing 35+ times a game. 30 is probably too much.

[BSLChrisStoner]

We shouldnt change our identity offensively. I cant put a number on how often we should be throwing more or how much would be too much but the identity needs to stay the same. Run sets up pass. We control the ball and TOP. I think I can safely say that ideally Lamar isnt throwing 35+ times a game. 30 is probably too much.

100%.

[Mike B]

I feel like the offense will look different to even the average observer.

 

Much less read option. Fewer 2 TE sets and more 11 personnel (3WR). Higher percentage of pass plays. The middle of our line is a strength now and because of that I see more of a traditional power run game. We also have two WRs, Bateman & Watkins, who can run  slants, win one-on-ones and pick up easy yards when needed. 

 

I don't think our personnel moves and coaching additions this offseason were coincidental. It seems clear to me that everyone from the front office down to the coaching staff wants to evolve the offense. I disagree with Jamie and do think it's possible the Ravens won't be #1 in rush yards. It's for the same reason I don't think we'll be last in passing yards. And if all of that does happen, the offense will be better off for it.

I think you are right.  I do expect the passing yards to go up significantly, which will naturally bring down the rush yards.

I also predict, that some of the same that have been harping on the passing yardage being last in the NFL, will be screaming, run the damn ball, when the Ravens lose a game while throwing 40 times. 

[Bmore Irish]

I feel like the offense will look different to even the average observer.

 

Much less read option. Fewer 2 TE sets and more 11 personnel (3WR). Higher percentage of pass plays. The middle of our line is a strength now and because of that I see more of a traditional power run game. We also have two WRs, Bateman & Watkins, who can run  slants, win one-on-ones and pick up easy yards when needed. 

 

I don't think our personnel moves and coaching additions this offseason were coincidental. It seems clear to me that everyone from the front office down to the coaching staff wants to evolve the offense. I disagree with Jamie and do think it's possible the Ravens won't be #1 in rush yards. It's for the same reason I don't think we'll be last in passing yards. And if all of that does happen, the offense will be better off for it.

The personnel moves definitely suggest they plan on evolving. If they end up carrying 7 WRs on the roster, I think that's a pretty clear sign that 11 personnel will be on the field quite a bit more.

 

I don't necessarily think that it needs to change our identity though. A lot of what they did out of those pistol sets in 22 or 12, you can do in 11 out of shotgun. Similar looks out of a different formation. Run read option plays where instead of Hayden Hurst motioning in and out of the backfield in that sort of H-back role, you get guys like Hollywood and Duvernay motioning across the formation to stress the defense horizontally. Not exactly the same because you're not getting that level of blocking from a WR, but similar effect. We started to see some more of that creativity in the playoffs. Some of what the Chiefs like to do with motioning Tyreek Hill into the backfield.

 

It'll be very interesting to see how many players they roster at TE/FB and WR. I'd still expect them to run more 12 and 22 than almost every other team in the league, but I think the shift towards more WRs on the field is coming for sure.

[hallas]

So you don't think we will or should throw the ball more?

I definitely think we should and am pretty sure we will. Generally speaking (w/o getting too specific) Hollywood & Andrews will be targeted about the same as last year, maybe a little less. But Bateman and Watkins will have a lot more targets than Boykin, Dez and company. Duvernay will get his gadget touches too.

Snead, Boykin, Ricard, Bryant, Proche, and Duvernay accounted for 133 targets. Lamar also had 49 scrambles, 10 more than in 2019. Assuming he is able to find an open man a few more times with more receiving talent, we can liberally assume another 20 or so targets.

It looks like the Ravens attempted about 10 more pass plays in 2019 than in 2020. I'd probably assume that number increases over 2019 marginally, so assuming Lamar scrambles a bit less due to having more receiving talent, and we attempt a marginally higher number of pass plays, there should be about 160 targets to go around between Watkins and Bateman.

[JordanKough]

To me, the big question is, how much of the Buffalo game do you attribute to the weather? And the poor OL play in pass blocking when you needed it? 

 

If you feel that the those two areas were the big reasons, I think we see generally the same offense. 

 

That being said, I think it's more than those two factors, including game plan, scheme, and most importantly "practice time". I think Ravens spent all their time on run concepts (a) because there wasn't a training camp and (b) they had to change run schemes in the middle of the year due to personnel. That makes you less comfortable with passing and makes you less effective when you do, IMO. 

 

I thikn we're going to see a team that tries to throw a bit more early in games effectively and run more late due to leads. But I do think the team is going to try and lay more of a passing foundation down on film than we've seen in past years. 

[JordanKough]

This got me thinking, how wild was last year? 

 

Hurricane game against NEP. COVID game against Pitt. A missed AJ Brown tackle away from beating Tenn in the regular season. And then a wild weather day with Lamar in Buffalo. 

 

You still need to win through adversity, but this team is probably 13-3 if not for that hurricane and COVID. And we can all agree the team definitively underperformed overall. 

 

I'll be surprised and disappointed if they aren't in the AFC Championship Game this year (barring an earlier matchup against KC) depending on seeding. 

[Mike in STL]

So you don't think we will or should throw the ball more?

I definitely think we should and am pretty sure we will. Generally speaking (w/o getting too specific) Hollywood & Andrews will be targeted about the same as last year, maybe a little less. But Bateman and Watkins will have a lot more targets than Boykin, Dez and company. Duvernay will get his gadget touches too.

They don’t need to throw it more just for the sake of doing it. Play to your strengths. Take what the defense gives you. Adjust if needed. Game script dictates what you should do. When game script says pass, that’s when I’ll want to see them be more efficient in that department.

[Biggsy]

They don’t need to throw it more just for the sake of doing it. Play to your strengths. Take what the defense gives you. Adjust if needed. Game script dictates what you should do. When game script says pass, that’s when I’ll want to see them be more efficient in that department.

100% agree. I hate assigning goals for pass and rush attempt totals. Just go with your strength, use it to set up the pass. And adjust your approach based on what is working. If someone stacks the box, start using the pass to try and make them come out of it. If they can't stop the run, run it down their throats and shorten the game, and dominate them.

I think Watkins and Bateman mixed in with Andrews and Brown gives them flexibility they didn't have. Those two should be able to win one on one's. We have 4 legit, viable passing targets. That should allow Roman to use the pass to set up the run when he has to. My fear is he uses the same old route concepts, and jams areas of the field with multiple targets in close proximity. If he continues to do that, it won't matter who is running the routes.

[hallas]

They don’t need to throw it more just for the sake of doing it. Play to your strengths. Take what the defense gives you. Adjust if needed. Game script dictates what you should do. When game script says pass, that’s when I’ll want to see them be more efficient in that department.

I mean, we dont need to share the ball with 6 or 7 receivers like the Chiefs. Just a marginal increase in passing attempts will mean like 160-180 targets available to Bateman, Watkins, and whoever emerges as a 5th receiving threat. I think a Ravens team that throws the ball 20-30 more times is still a run-first team by a longshot.

[Huddle It Up Films]

Edit: Sorry I meant to quote 2035

 

Appreciate the response. I think we're a little ways apart in opinion. I do believe our identity will shift. Semantics but... maybe it doesn't completely change but it will change enough for the raw numbers to show it. Every move we've made on offense along with bringing in Williams & Martin (letting go of Matt Weiss) points to it.

 

And I'm all for it for a lot of reasons. Main reason being it would be a waste of personnel and Lamar's talent. The more we can do the better. And we can always go back to smashmouth when the game situation and opponent dictates it.

[Huddle It Up Films]

The personnel moves definitely suggest they plan on evolving. If they end up carrying 7 WRs on the roster, I think that's a pretty clear sign that 11 personnel will be on the field quite a bit more.

 

I don't necessarily think that it needs to change our identity though. A lot of what they did out of those pistol sets in 22 or 12, you can do in 11 out of shotgun. Similar looks out of a different formation. Run read option plays where instead of Hayden Hurst motioning in and out of the backfield in that sort of H-back role, you get guys like Hollywood and Duvernay motioning across the formation to stress the defense horizontally. Not exactly the same because you're not getting that level of blocking from a WR, but similar effect. We started to see some more of that creativity in the playoffs. Some of what the Chiefs like to do with motioning Tyreek Hill into the backfield.

 

It'll be very interesting to see how many players they roster at TE/FB and WR. I'd still expect them to run more 12 and 22 than almost every other team in the league, but I think the shift towards more WRs on the field is coming for sure.

This is where I am, especially what's described in the second paragraph. The semantics of this discussion are tricky but I think the best way to describe it will be the average observer will see a difference. It will definitely look different to us.

[Huddle It Up Films]

I think you are right.  I do expect the passing yards to go up significantly, which will naturally bring down the rush yards.

I also predict, that some of the same that have been harping on the passing yardage being last in the NFL, will be screaming, run the damn ball, when the Ravens lose a game while throwing 40 times. 

 

I thought of that too. Give Jamal the ball part two! hahaha

[Huddle It Up Films]

Snead, Boykin, Ricard, Bryant, Proche, and Duvernay accounted for 133 targets. Lamar also had 49 scrambles, 10 more than in 2019. Assuming he is able to find an open man a few more times with more receiving talent, we can liberally assume another 20 or so targets.

It looks like the Ravens attempted about 10 more pass plays in 2019 than in 2020. I'd probably assume that number increases over 2019 marginally, so assuming Lamar scrambles a bit less due to having more receiving talent, and we attempt a marginally higher number of pass plays, there should be about 160 targets to go around between Watkins and Bateman.

 

Thanks for the info. If I get some time tonight I'm going to dig into these numbers to be better equipped to be more specific.

[Huddle It Up Films]

They don’t need to throw it more just for the sake of doing it. Play to your strengths. Take what the defense gives you. Adjust if needed. Game script dictates what you should do. When game script says pass, that’s when I’ll want to see them be more efficient in that department.

 

Well I'm definitely not suggesting to do it just to do it. There's a good chance we'll need to use Bateman, Cleveland, Zeitler and company to shred through the air to win a Super Bowl. And to be clear, I'm definitely not saying or worried about Roman abandoning the run game. Roman's history says that won't happen.

 

Like you said, take what the defense gives you. We need to be more diverse in the passing game to do so.

[Mike in STL]

I mean, we dont need to share the ball with 6 or 7 receivers like the Chiefs. Just a marginal increase in passing attempts will mean like 160-180 targets available to Bateman, Watkins, and whoever emerges as a 5th receiving threat. I think a Ravens team that throws the ball 20-30 more times is still a run-first team by a longshot.

You mean 160-180 targets to Watkins and Bateman alone? That is very very generous. 

 

Brown and Andrews combined for 162 targets in 2019 and 183 targets in 2020. Those two guys are still here, and Andrews is still probably going to get his 80+, if not 90+ looks. I think Dobbins gets more looks too as he was only a part time player the first half of 2020. Ingram gone now, only drew 8 targets himself last year. 

 

I'm interested to see where Bateman's targets come from. IMO, he's the only "X" receiver on the team. The guy you put alone on one side and expect him to win one-on-one matchups, run all the routes on the tree. 

 

Watkins I think steps into Snead's place and accounts for the 45-47 targets he vacates. Maybe he gets to 50 targets with the extra game, but I doubt more.

 

Brown increased his targets by 30 from 2019 to 2020. Was part of that vacating 38 targets from Hayden Hurst in 2019, while a hurt Boyle wasn't there part of the season to pick those up in 2020? Who knows. Maybe part of it was his complaining. 

 

But I could see Bateman eating into Brown's target share by maybe 20-30. Then getting 30 more of his own that last year went to Dez (10) Proche (3, bubble to make the team perhaps) Boykin (had 32, drop him down to maybe 20) take a few from Duvernay, add a few for the extra game. 

 

I think 110 targets between Bateman and Watkins is more likely. But if the Ravens don't view Bateman as the "X", and he's playing 4th WR behind Boykin since he's a rookie, it could be a lot lower. 

 

Targets I'd say would look like 

Brown - 70

Bateman - 60

Watkins - 50

Boykin - 20

Duvernay - 20

Wallace - 10

Misc. WR7s - 5

 

Andrews - 85

Boyle - 30

Misc. TE3s - 5

 

Dobbins - 50

Edwards - 10

Hill - 5

Ricard - 5

 

That would be 425 targets, 17 games, 25 attempts per game. About 1 more attempt per game than last year. 

[hallas]

You mean 160-180 targets to Watkins and Bateman alone? That is very very generous.

Brown and Andrews combined for 162 targets in 2019 and 183 targets in 2020. Those two guys are still here, and Andrews is still probably going to get his 80+, if not 90+ looks. I think Dobbins gets more looks too as he was only a part time player the first half of 2020. Ingram gone now, only drew 8 targets himself last year.

I'm interested to see where Bateman's targets come from. IMO, he's the only "X" receiver on the team. The guy you put alone on one side and expect him to win one-on-one matchups, run all the routes on the tree.

Watkins I think steps into Snead's place and accounts for the 45-47 targets he vacates. Maybe he gets to 50 targets with the extra game, but I doubt more.

Brown increased his targets by 30 from 2019 to 2020. Was part of that vacating 38 targets from Hayden Hurst in 2019, while a hurt Boyle wasn't there part of the season to pick those up in 2020? Who knows. Maybe part of it was his complaining.

But I could see Bateman eating into Brown's target share by maybe 20-30. Then getting 30 more of his own that last year went to Dez (10) Proche (3, bubble to make the team perhaps) Boykin (had 32, drop him down to maybe 20) take a few from Duvernay, add a few for the extra game.

I think 110 targets between Bateman and Watkins is more likely. But if the Ravens don't view Bateman as the "X", and he's playing 4th WR behind Boykin since he's a rookie, it could be a lot lower.

Targets I'd say would look like
Brown - 70
Bateman - 60
Watkins - 50
Boykin - 20
Duvernay - 20
Wallace - 10
Misc. WR7s - 5

Andrews - 85
Boyle - 30
Misc. TE3s - 5

Dobbins - 50
Edwards - 10
Hill - 5
Ricard - 5

That would be 425 targets, 17 games, 25 attempts per game. About 1 more attempt per game than last year.

Do you really think the RBs are going to get 50% more targets than 2020? They only had 47 in 2020 and 51 in 2019. Its not like the Ravens can really utilize screen plays to RBs given that every team mush rushes against Lamar. Also I'm fine with never giving Ricard another pass attempt again to be totally honest.

Also I suspect we are only going 5 deep at WR. So the 160-180 targets is going to be for Bateman, Watkins, and whoever steps up at WR. I don't really see a burning need to suit up all of Duvernay, Boykin, and Wallace.

Between not going 7 deep at WR and not throwing to RBs 70 times next season, that's another 40 targets to Bateman, Watkins, or whoever else.

I was thinking something like 180 targets between Brown and Andrews, 140-160 to Bateman/Watkins, 40-60 to Boyle and WR4-6, and 50 to RBs. That adds up to around 430 total pass attempts.