148 replies to this topic

[Mike B]

Lucky we had the grandson yesterday and I missed most of the angst over Saturday's game.  Clearly it was bad.  I do think we can make it work.but as has been said the p-assing offense needs to improve.  We need a big body type receiver and IMO another pass catching TE.  Hayden Hurst was missed.  Clearly we need to fix the center position.  I watched the Bucs game last night and Ryan Jensen stood out.  He was missed.

 

All the doom and gloom will subside, and very shortly we will begin to come up with fan solutions.  The front office is probably doing that already.

[BSLRoseKatz]

Classy yes because it helps charities, but it still smacks a bit of rubbing our noses in it. Would they have done the same if they had lost .? Nope .

I really don't think the kids who'll benefit from the donations are gonna care if it was done to rub it in the noses of fans.

 

Also this is the Bills' first trip to the AFC title game since the 90s, they don't really seem like the kind of fanbase who's gonna care about messing with the opposing fans instead of celebrating something that hadn't happened in the 21st century. 

[Mackus]

Classy yes because it helps charities, but it still smacks a bit of rubbing our noses in it. Would they have done the same if they had lost .? Nope .

This is some really unappealing cynicism, IMO.

Bills fans have donated money to opponents causes many times in the past. The thing with Jackson wasn't new.

https://billswire.us...o-titans-cause/

https://www.espn.com...ilgating-antics

[Ravens2006]

Yeah, if rubbing someone's nose in a loss is donating to their charities afterwards... by all means, keep rubbing it in...

In a world that's become more and more about hot takes, overemotional ranting, flaunting and prancing and dancing, "clapping at" and "clapping back" at people, by all means... Keep rubbing noses in a loss by donating to a charity!

[Ravens2006]

I'll maintain, the passing offense can improve enough with some more diverse scheme. They don't need to be top ranked or top tier. They need to pick up a few more first downs, and be a little more effective punching the ball in down in the red zone. And generally run some plays that can slow down a pass rush.

Chad Henne iced the game yesterday on a 4th and inches pass that Tyreek Hill caught behind the LOS. Their fast guy in the slot, outside WRs both start go routes to drag the CBs downfield a bit. Hill inside takes a step or two, plants, then high tails it parallel to the line. His assignment can't adjust and get over in time, and it winds up an easy pitch and catch. Two decoys clear out, the speed guy runs a route and angle designed to get him moving, and he catches the ball with space around him... Needing to only sprint forward a couple strides for the first down. That's something the Ravens could replicate with a Brown or Duvernay or Proche (since his hands are supposedly solid). But they don't do this stuff... I don't understand why...

[JordanKough]

Looking back at this game is so darn frustrating.

 

End of the day, you've got to be better up front. They had Brown open for the TD but Phillips gets the pressure. The OL on the right side was awful. I think if you can find a way to extend Brown you have to do it. 

 

I'm fine without a top tier pass catcher. I think what we have works, we just need a better OL and a scheme that can let some passing concepts have time to develop. Scherff, Linsley, Thune are top tier options, I'd spend for any of them. I'd be aggressive. 

I'd also be fine with Reiter, Andrews or Mack as an option when the price fall a bit due to cap. I think Baltimore should have tried to go after Mack this year in a trade...but who knows if they did or not. 

 

Better offensive line play and we win this game, period. Better scheme helps, but not as much as OL. Need a passing game coordinator, though at a minimum.

 

I think we can win with the WR we have now. But we cannot win with the OL we have now. 

[hallas]

I don't really know how Lamar can be judged fairly as a passer this season when his offensive line couldn't even snap him the ball without turning it into a clown show. The fact that Lamar was able to save them in some cases through sheer determination and athleticism doesn't diminish the fact that they put him in harms way, and at best threw away a down, and at worst put them in 2nd or 3rd and a mile. How are you supposed to establish the run game if your offensive line airmails a snap and sets you back 20 yards? And this wasn't like a one time thing, it happened like 10 times last season. Thats 10 drives stalled, likely out of field goal range, for something that you really shouldn't be having a problem with in the NFL.

Lamar had a pretty good season last year throwing the ball. But he had more/better tight ends, a better pass catching RB in Ingram, and an OL that wasn't trying to get him killed. Without these tools it's really no surprise that he didn't perform as well. But despite having all together worse tools he still didn't do that badly. He did better than Flacco did in some of his seasons, even when you adjust for offensive context. If this is a down year then that's pretty good.

I'll also add that I supported keeping Flacco when I probably shouldn't have. I really think Lamar is on another level though, given his age and his 2019 season.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

Lets get off the replace Roman train right now. This offense nearly rushed for 200 yards a game again this season. Over 200 per last year. An offense under Lamar has to start and end with an effective run game and no one develops a better run game than Roman. We'll be bringing in a new passing game coordinator. We'll see what he can do along with Lamar needing to get to work in the offseason to continue to develop his passing from the pocket. Be careful what you wish for Other than Kubiak, no one knew Flacco better than Cam Cameron and he was a punching bag for years. Yes, they fired him and Caldwell was the OC for the SB run but from that point on(other than Kubiak who kept Joe in check) they gave way too much responsibility to Flacco and tried to develop offenses that he was inefficient running. From Caldwell to Trestman to Mortingnweg they all failed trying to make Joe something he wasn't good at doing. You needed to hand the ball off a lot and use PA off of it. Only Cameron and Kubiak figured that out and kept Joe's ego in check. If you try to go away from this base of offense that Roman runs its not going to end well. This is where the talking heads harm a guy like Lamar's career. They'll talk about Roman harming his career when Roman is the one who has allowed him to flourish.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

I don't really know how Lamar can be judged fairly as a passer this season when his offensive line couldn't even snap him the ball without turning it into a clown show. The fact that Lamar was able to save them in some cases through sheer determination and athleticism doesn't diminish the fact that they put him in harms way, and at best threw away a down, and at worst put them in 2nd or 3rd and a mile. How are you supposed to establish the run game if your offensive line airmails a snap and sets you back 20 yards? And this wasn't like a one time thing, it happened like 10 times last season. Thats 10 drives stalled, likely out of field goal range, for something that you really shouldn't be having a problem with in the NFL.

Lamar had a pretty good season last year throwing the ball. But he had more/better tight ends, a better pass catching RB in Ingram, and an OL that wasn't trying to get him killed. Without these tools it's really no surprise that he didn't perform as well. But despite having all together worse tools he still didn't do that badly. He did better than Flacco did in some of his seasons, even when you adjust for offensive context. If this is a down year then that's pretty good.

I'll also add that I supported keeping Flacco when I probably shouldn't have. I really think Lamar is on another level though, given his age and his 2019 season.

Thats the problem with literally taking every snap from the Gun. Other than kneel downs and sneaks. Not that snapping the ball over his head should happen with regularity but there are going to be poor snaps and a higher risk of turnovers or huge losses.

[JordanKough]

I've got problems with Roman being the OC and calling the shots. I'd rather have him be a 'run game coordinator' than the OC with a pass game coordinator. So to me, that's the big question. 

 

Imagine with me for a moment, that we invested in offense rather than Peters and Thomas the last two years. Added an impact WR and an impact iOL. You had a spread designed offense that was high powered. And that you ran against light boxes when they came up, but otherwise kept teams spread out and threw the ball around the field and attacked the seams. 

 

I think it's much easier to run with fewer blockers with elite scheme out of passing formations than it is to pass against heavy boxes out of running formations. Predominantly, you're self-confusing your OL by letting teams pack the box. You basically create Cover-0 or Cover-1 looks with lots of guys at the LOS and lots of options to blitz when you choose to because teams HAVE to do that. 

 

I love what Roman has done, but I think what he could do with the running game out of a pass designed offense would be even more more immense than what we see right now. 

[Mackus]

Jordan you're not suggesting it's possible (or a question) that they demote Roman are you?

[TwentyThirtyFive]

One more thing in defense of Roman. He's shown a knack for figuring things out in the 2nd half of games to combat what tge defense is doing. Look at what happened in Indy. The 1st half of the Tenn game wasnt pretty early other than the Lamar scramble TD. The Ravens put together a solid drive to end the 1st half and begin the 2nd half in Buffalo. If we get at least 3 points there instead of the pick 6 the outcome easily could have been different.

[Roll Tide]

I think they tried to pass more earlier in the season and the pass blocking was so problematic that it wasn't effective.

Fix the offensive line and you can get the most out of Lamar. He can throw it. He proved that last season. He just needs some time in the pocket. He'll put the work in to regain the mechanical improvements he made prior to 2019 and make whatever other improvements he's capable of.

Interior OL has to be addressed with significant resources.

 

 

FYI

 

Step 3: Work with Lamar on his mechanics

Time to address the elephant in the room. Lamar Jackson does need to improve as a passer if the Ravens are going to win the Super Bowl, which is the responsibility of quarterbacks coach James Urban -- the man who turned Jackson into the most valuable weapon in the NFL. Jackson was just 23rd in the NFL in on-target throw percentage (throws that would have hit the intended receiving target) at 75.3%, below the 76% from last season. On passes that weren't catchable (bad-throw percentage), Jackson was 15th in the NFL at 17.6% (17.5% in 2019). Jackson was 12th in the league in pocket time at 2.5 seconds per pass attempt and was pressured 21.4% of the time (17th in NFL), so he has time to go through his progressions. 

 

https://www.cbssport...bowl-contender/

[JordanKough]

Jordan you're not suggesting it's possible (or a question) that they demote Roman are you?

 

Definitely not suggesting, I don't think it's a tenable otucome for all parties. Which ultmiately is why I think he'll be gone. 

 

I really think Roman is a run genius, but I think he's two decades too late to be a long-term offensiver coordinator anywhere. 

[TwentyThirtyFive]

I've got problems with Roman being the OC and calling the shots. I'd rather have him be a 'run game coordinator' than the OC with a pass game coordinator. So to me, that's the big question.

Imagine with me for a moment, that we invested in offense rather than Peters and Thomas the last two years. Added an impact WR and an impact iOL. You had a spread designed offense that was high powered. And that you ran against light boxes when they came up, but otherwise kept teams spread out and threw the ball around the field and attacked the seams.

I think it's much easier to run with fewer blockers with elite scheme out of passing formations than it is to pass against heavy boxes out of running formations. Predominantly, you're self-confusing your OL by letting teams pack the box. You basically create Cover-0 or Cover-1 looks with lots of guys at the LOS and lots of options to blitz when you choose to because teams HAVE to do that.

I love what Roman has done, but I think what he could do with the running game out of a pass designed offense would be even more more immense than what we see right now.

With respect you were big on changes anyone other than so and so could make with Flacco until you know they came in handed Flacco more responsibility and he failed with all of them. Quickly you turned on every single one of the coordinators while not putting enough blame on Joe. Roman is not taking a demotion nor should he. He needs to be the one calling the plays. Lamar needs to get to work on his passing from the pocket. Some of the sacks he took this postseason were because he held the ball too long. Was that because of receivers not open? I dont know but as great as he is as an escape artist there are still times he needs to throw the ball away.

[JordanKough]

FYI

 

https://www.cbssport...bowl-contender/

 

That 2.5 second stat is a good one. But if the scheme is never designed to effectively get the ball out quickly, what do you expect.

 

This is my biggest frustration with the Bills game. There should have been heavy contingencies built in before coming into this game saying:

 

1. What do we do if we just can't pass the ball because the weather is bad. 

2. What adjustments do we make if Buffalo essentially run blitzes 8 guys every play. 

 

Our answers to those questions were not good enough. And both of those things didn't need an adjustment. Those should have been heavily part of the plan coming into the game. 

[Roll Tide]

That 2.5 second stat is a good one. But if the scheme is never designed to effectively get the ball out quickly, what do you expect.

 

This is my biggest frustration with the Bills game. There should have been heavy contingencies built in before coming into this game saying:

 

1. What do we do if we just can't pass the ball because the weather is bad. 

2. What adjustments do we make if Buffalo essentially run blitzes 8 guys every play. 

 

Our answers to those questions were not good enough. And both of those things didn't need an adjustment. Those should have been heavily part of the plan coming into the game. 

I agree with you

 

Why was the quick passing game not there? Was it Lamar, the pistol that is easy to cover with the zone or both. Plus a dose of Ravens arrogance. We are going to run and even if we struggle we are going to stick with it and prove we can.

[JordanKough]

With respect you were big on changes anyone other than so and so could make with Flacco until you know they came in handed Flacco more responsibility and he failed with all of them. Quickly you turned on every single one of tge coordinators while not putting enough blame on Joe. Roman is not taking a demotion nor should he. He needs to be the one calling the plays. Lamar needs to get to work on his passing from the pocket. Some of the sacks he took this postseason were because he held the ball too long. Was that because of receivers not open? I dont know but as great as he is as an escape artist there are still times he needs to throw the ball away.

 

Agreed, the Ravens haven't had an offensive coordinator that's innovative enough in the passing game period for me taste. 

I was down for Kubiak and would bring him back tomorrow to work with Lamar, Lamar in a boot, play action, offense of the Shanahan scheme would be really hard to defend.

 

But if your point is that I thought Morniwheg, Cameron, Trestmanl, and Caldwell weren't good enough as playcallers, I can live with that. I'd say Roman is better than all of them. But in today's NFL, I think Roman is the wrong guy to get us to the mountain top...I think we need a young, fresh, sharp mind to rebuild the order of operations of the offense. That sets more spread and passing schemes first to set up what would then be a more devastating run game, and not the other way around. 

[makoman]

I'd be shocked if Roman is fired. I was also shocked when Cameron was fired so anything can happen. 

 

I don't know enough to know if that would be the right decision, a lot of it would have to do with who would be the replacement. But it's interesting that there's suddenly a lot of smoke going around talking about how simple this passing offense is. If he stays I hope some of that changes.

 

More than anything, Lamar needs to work on his footwork this offseason IMO. Go back to Scott Harris, whatever you did for 2019. Some think the league and good defenses have figured him out but I think the majority of the problem was his mechanics were just off this year from last year.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

Agreed, the Ravens haven't had an offensive coordinator that's innovative enough in the passing game period for me taste.

I was down for Kubiak and would bring him back tomorrow to work with Lamar, Lamar in a boot, play action, offense of the Shanahan scheme would be really hard to defend.

But if your point is that I thought Morniwheg, Cameron, Trestmanl, and Caldwell weren't good enough as playcallers, I can live with that. I'd say Roman is better than all of them. But in today's NFL, I think Roman is the wrong guy to get us to the mountain top...I think we need a young, fresh, sharp mind to rebuild the order of operations of the offense. That sets more spread and passing schemes first to set up what would then be a more devastating run game, and not the other way around.

So dont hand the freaking keys of OC to a young, sharp minded offensive guy. Hand him the keys to passing coordinator. If Lamar appears to be handling the schemes and concepts well and improves as a passer yet we're still not over the hump in the next few years thats when you promote the guy and hand him and ultimately Lamar more responsibility.