329 replies to this topic

[Mackus]

The Dodgers have the reputation of never trading anything they truly believe in.

I do agree with you on the Dodgers and their reputation.

I don't recall hearing that about the Dodgers. Doesn't really match reality, either. Friedman has traded away Dee Gordon, Miguel Rojas, Frankie Montas, Yordan Alvarez, Oniel Cruz, Dean Kremer, Alex Verdugo, Josiah Gray, and Kelbert Ruiz.

I think the main takeaway is that they always have a great system because they use every resource they can to enhance the farm system and they scout and develop well. They then use the system both to graduate talent and make trades. Some guys they trade away are stud prospects that meet expectations, some are studs that fall short, others are modest prospects that explode. I don't think there is any substance to the idea that they know who to trade away and always will win trades because someone they deal is destined to fail.

Any at-the-time disappointment in Diaz was only because people felt Manny should have been worth more. Any after-the-fact disappointment in Diaz is because after a hot start to his O's career he became unable to stay in the lineup and then started really struggling even when he could. Both are valid criticisms if used within the proper context, but neither negates Diaz as a very legitimate prospect in mid-2018.

[1970]

I don't recall hearing that about the Dodgers. Doesn't really match reality, either. Friedman has traded away Dee Gordon, Miguel Rojas, Frankie Montas, Yordan Alvarez, Oniel Cruz, Dean Kremer, Alex Verdugo, Josiah Gray, and Kelbert Ruiz.

 

That was their reputation in the 70’s, 80’s and maybe even into the 90’s.  Back then the press seemed to really build up the Dodgers and Yankees systems, so I believe the reputation came at least partly from people what they read in the papers or in places like the Sporting News.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

This is one of the worst trades in Orioles history. Even with Kremer still being around and having real potential and acknowledging Manny was a rental. HOF player traded at 26 for maybe 1 solid SP. Maybe. Said it before and will say it again, DD did this organization dirty at the end of his tenure and I think it was on purpose.

[Mackus]

It wasn't even the worst trade made at that deadline, IMO.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

It wasn't even the worst trade made at that deadline, IMO.

Of course it was. You can argue it wasnt at the time. It is in retrospect

[Mackus]

Of course it was. You can argue it wasnt at the time. It is in retrospect

 

2.5 years of Gausman for nothing is worse than 1/2 year of Manny for nothing, IMO.  Especially if going in retrospect you then have to consider that the Manny "nothing" still includes Kremer whereas the Gausman "nothing" was Zimmerman.

 

The Gausman trade was a bigger setback for the org than the Manny trade.  The biggest peice of the Manny trade busted, but there was no big piece in the Gausman trade since the internatonal money went unspent.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

Gausman was released by 2 more teams. When his 6 years of service time was up he was JAG

[TwentyThirtyFive]

A better way to put it is he had 1 year left when he was traded. We shouldve done better then what we got but you reasonably couldnt expect much for him. If he had played here his last year of arb there is no reason to suspect a breakout was coming and you were going to significantly raise his value at the 2019 deadline

[Mackus]

Gausman was released by 2 more teams. When his 6 years of service time was up he was JAG

 

Manny was a FA after 2018.  Manny and Gausman were both very good after the trade in 2018, Manny better but Gausman was solid (sub-3 ERA in 10 starts).  I'll take Gausman's 2019 & 2020, even if was a bad year and an injured but good year, over the nothing that you can compare it to for Manny since he wasn't under control.

 

Gausman was the worse trade at the time and in retrospect.  Not extending Manny for a decade three to five years sooner is the gravest crime, but I don't think is part of the conversation when comparing the two trades.

[Mackus]

A better way to put it is he had 1 year left when he was traded. We shouldve done better then what we got but you reasonably couldnt expect much for him. If he had played here his last year of arb there is no reason to suspect a breakout was coming and you were going to significantly raise his value at the 2019 deadline

 

He had two plus years left when traded.  He was a Super-2 in 2017, first true arb year in 2018.  He was under control for 2019 and 2020.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

Gausman wasnt Gausman when he was traded. I disagree it is worse in retrospect but the bigger issue I have is DD sabotaging this organization.

[Mackus]

Gausman wasnt Gausman when he was traded. I disagree it is worse in retrospect but the bigger issue I have is DD sabotaging this organization.

 

I don't think it was intentional sabotage. I think he was appealing to ownership to earn an extension by slashing salary.  I don't know if they told him outright to do it or if Duquette just inferred that they'd like to see the payroll bottomed out, but I think that was the objective.

 

Whatever the cause, it was certainly a horrible series of moves.

[TwentyThirtyFive]

He had two plus years left when traded. He was a Super-2 in 2017, first true arb year in 2018. He was under control for 2019 and 2020.

Ill take your word that '20 was his arb 3 year. Regardless I cant be convinced that it was a worse trade. Gaus was JAG. Manny was and is a future HOFer. You have to get something back for him. I will say that if Kremer pans out it could change my mind. Book isnt closed on tge Manny deal. It is on the other deals

[TwentyThirtyFive]

I don't think it was intentional sabotage. I think he was appealing to ownership to earn an extension by slashing salary. I don't know if they told him outright to do it or if Duquette just inferred that they'd like to see the payroll bottomed out, but I think that was the objective.

Whatever the cause, it was certainly a horrible series of moves.

I dont think he tried to max out the returns. That was his job at the time. Maybe it wasnt sabotage but he didnt do his job and I dont believe he gave a crap at that point. I disagree about an extension. I think he knew his time was up

[Mike in STL]

This is one of the worst trades in Orioles history. Even with Kremer still being around and having real potential and acknowledging Manny was a rental. HOF player traded at 26 for maybe 1 solid SP. Maybe. Said it before and will say it again, DD did this organization dirty at the end of his tenure and I think it was on purpose.

That’s why at the time I wanted DD and Buck gone mid season. I wanted that trade deadline to be utilized by someone who had skin in the game. Not someone who may have been playing against the O’s in the future.

[BaltBird 24]

That’s why at the time I wanted DD and Buck gone mid season. I wanted that trade deadline to be utilized by someone who had skin in the game. Not someone who may have been playing against the O’s in the future.

Not sure Buck had anything to do with the deadline deals, and you aren't hiring your future GM at mid season to make trades.

[Mike in STL]

Not sure Buck had anything to do with the deadline deals, and you aren't hiring your future GM at mid season to make trades.

TBF I wanted him gone long before that, but fair enough.

[Mike in STL]

Anyone looking for a paper weight? 

 

[weird-O]

I dont think he tried to max out the returns. That was his job at the time. Maybe it wasnt sabotage but he didnt do his job and I dont believe he gave a crap at that point. I disagree about an extension. I think he knew his time was up

What leverage did he have? It was already well known that Manny had chosen free agency, and they only got what they got, because Seager had been out for almost the whole season, and the Dodgers wanted better production at SS.

 

And it's ridiculous to think a GM would intentionally blunder a trade to hurt his organization. Everyone knew DD wasn't being brought back. So he was playing for his next contract. You know how you don't get another GM job? You blatantly screw your former team.  

[BSLRoseKatz]

I think it's reasonable for everyone to be sentimental about Manny (I am too) but here's the raw numbers for what the Dodgers got from him

 

66 regular season games, 296 PAs, .825 OPS, 2.5 bWAR

 

16 postseason games, 72 PAs, .672 OPS (they don't have WAR just for the postseason lol)