26 replies to this topic

[GregGoldstein]

BSL: Minor League Discussion With Greg, Zach, & Reggie

http://baltimorespor...gue-discussion/

[BSLChrisStoner]

Nice read guys. Liked the names mentioned outside of Hall as names who intrigue.

[SportsGuy]

Interesting thought by Reggie that the lack of Intl FAs eventually hurts you in ML Free Agency because there is no culture on the team.

I wonder how much truth there is to that?

[SportsGuy]

http://www.baltimore...astle-others/6/

[RichardZ]

Jon Schoop was not tripping over his own feet when he came to the majors.    He was a solid defender in the minors and most thought he would be a 2B even though he had played SS a lot in the minors as well.    There is not one scout I have seen mention 2B as a future for Ryan Mountcastle.    Every piece written on him (except here) mentions LF and 1B as his likely future destination.    

 

2B is probably the most important position after SS and catcher.   I would not call that low on the totem pole.    At 2B, besides fielding your position, you are turning the DP, and also involved in lots of relays.    Jon Schoop is a big, athletic, well coordinated guy with a bazooka arm and even he is just about average at 2B.     Trying to put Mountcastle there would be like putting a square peg in a round hole.   Below average range and below average arm and I don't believe he has the athleticism of Schoop  (Mountcastle my run faster but I'm talking about infield actions and coordination).    Everyone talks about his "funky arm action" and how one throw is average and the next one is a stinker as far as arm strength.    The best case scenario is that he can stick at 3B but I thing it's less than 50% that it happens.   

 

Why do you guys ignore what professional scouts are saying?

[SportsGuy]

Reggie worked in player development for the Os. Knows and talks to scouts.

[SportsGuy]

And I disagree about second. Yes, it’s important in regards to DPs but with shifts and every righty(way more righties than lefties) trying to pull the ball and hit homers, second base has been devalued imo.

C, third, SS and Cf are more important imo.

[BSLChrisStoner]

Reggie worked in player development for the Os. Knows and talks to scouts.

And Zach worked with the Nats, and Greg works for BP.

[bnickle]

And I disagree about second. Yes, it’s important in regards to DPs but with shifts and every righty(way more righties than lefties) trying to pull the ball and hit homers, second base has been devalued imo.

C, third, SS and Cf are more important imo.

There is a reason you hear the phrase being strong up the middle. CF and SS yes but agree with RZ that 2nd is right behind those two positions. I also have not read many publications/scouts talk about Mountcastle at 2b. The Os have never played him a game there in his career and have never talked about moving him there. They also clearly see him as a square peg in a round hole at that position. To me you give him the most of this year to prove himself at 3b and look to transition him to a corner OF spot if it doesn't work out.

[SportsGuy]

There is a reason you hear the phrase being strong up the middle. CF and SS yes but agree with RZ that 2nd is right behind those two positions. I also have not read many publications/scouts talk about Mountcastle at 2b. The Os have never played him a game there in his career and have never talked about moving him there. They also clearly see him as a square peg in a round hole at that position. To me you give him the most of this year to prove himself at 3b and look to transition him to a corner OF spot if it doesn't work out.

Yes, there is a reason..because it’s something that has always been said, is a cliche that is ingrained in people’s minds and with the way the game used to be played, it was important.

But the game is different now...and because of that, second base is a devalued defensive position imo.

[BSLChrisStoner]

Yes, there is a reason..because it’s something that has always been said, is a cliche that is ingrained in people’s minds and with the way the game used to be played, it was important.

But the game is different now...and because of that, second base is a devalued defensive position imo.

I think what you've suggested about the amount of shifting, etc is something interesting to look at....   the idea of less chances, etc.

But that's something you could actually measure. How many chances are 2nd baseman getting today vs. 10 years ago?

If there is a significant difference, maybe the argument can be made.

But the value around the bag, their ability to turn double plays, their ability on relays.... their ability to field the balls / get to the balls within their range (even if there is a statistical difference today vs. yesterday) has plenty of value.... even if it can be proven their chances are now significantly less.

 

 

 

 

I think the comments about Schoop being regarded as even a competent MiL 2nd baseman are mostly revisionist history. I saw numerous scouting reports on him coming up, saying he couldn't handle the position at the ML level, only to be surprised by what I saw when he first made it to the Majors. 

As soon as I saw him, I saw a guy with livable range, the great arm, excellence around the bag. I thought he could stay at the position.

I haven't seen Mountcastle... I can't make great proclamations because of that.
It does make sense to me to believe that a guy that has grown up playing SS, could handle the transition.  A below average SS, should have a chance at being an average 2nd baseman imo.

No matter what, we know it's his bat which is going to keep him in the Majors.... he doesn't have to be Jeff Kent, but if he hits enough... you can live with the ceiling for his defensive ability at 2nd being 'okay.'  He just can't be a complete cluster at the position.

[bnickle]

There are a lot of guys who can't transition from the left side of the infield to the right side of the infield. The thought that because you're a SS you should be able transition just isn't the case. Especially for bigger guys. There is a reason why those guys transition to 3rd a lot more often than 2nd.

[bnickle]

They are telling you he is going to fill out even more on a 6-3 frame. How many 6-3 230 pound 2b do you remember.

[BSLChrisStoner]

There are a lot of guys who can't transition from the left side of the infield to the right side of the infield. The thought that because you're a SS you should be able transition just isn't the case. Especially for bigger guys. There is a reason why those guys transition to 3rd a lot more often than 2nd.

 

Fair enough, but for now I'm going to defer to our 3 guys who all believe he's capable of doing so.

If he has to stay at 3rd, okay.   If you extend Machado, Manny could still shift to SS.   If Manny leaves, at-least you have an internal player with offensive upside.

Law had a quote sometime this off-season about Mountcastle in the AFL.... saying the arm wasn't consistent, but for at-least one play showed as competent for 3rd.

[BSLChrisStoner]

They are telling you he is going to fill out even more on a 6-3 frame. How many 6-3 230 pound 2b do you remember.

Same argument was made for Schoop.  That he would be too big to handle the position.  Right now, Schoop is going into his 5th year in the Majors at the position. 

And while Mountcastle has 2 inches on Schoop, right now he's listed at 195.

[bnickle]

Same argument was made for Schoop. That he would be too big to handle the position. Right now, Schoop is going into his 5th year in the Majors at the position.

And while Mountcastle has 2 inches on Schoop, right now he's listed at 195.

Schoop is an exception. He looks too big out there at times. We know his range is below avg but he makes up for it with his arm. It's strong and it's accurate. We know that's an issue with Mountcastle. So not only are guys that big extremely rare as 2b but the biggest asset that make it possible(for now)for a guy like Schoop, isn't a good tool for Mountcastle.

[bnickle]

One last note on Schoop. By the time he played a full season in the organization he was playing the majority of his time at 2b. At 19 he made the transition at Frederick. 20 yrs old at Bowie he played 2/3 of his games at 2b. That was his position.They obviously thought he could handle it and were quick to put him there at a young age. Mountcastle just finished his 20 yr old season and they've never played him a single game at 2nd or have ever mentioned trying him there. That speaks volumes to me as someone who's never seen him in person.

[RichardZ]

I think the comments about Schoop being regarded as even a competent MiL 2nd baseman are mostly revisionist history. I saw numerous scouting reports on him coming up, saying he couldn't handle the position at the ML level, only to be surprised by what I saw when he first made it to the Majors. 

As soon as I saw him, I saw a guy with livable range, the great arm, excellence around the bag. I thought he could stay at the position.
 

 

Chris,  it would be great if you could provide something more concrete than your memory.

 

 

Here's something concrete from the 2012 Baseball America Prospect Handbook regarding Schoop after 1/2 season at Delmarva and 1/2 at Frederick in 2011.  "Schoop made great progress at 2B and turns the double play beautifully, though he may outgrow the middle infield.   He has the arm and hands for any infield spot"

 

Two years later, his last year in the minors the 2014 handbook after 70 games at Norfolk, says this:

Schoop has first step quickness to go with good hands and a plus arm.  He's capable of playing 2B, SS, and 3B but seems best suited for 2B".

 

That's something concrete that directly contradicts your memory.   Schoop was considered a good defender coming up.    Find me something concrete outside of your three guy's opinions that says ANYTHING like that about Mountcastle  (first step quickness, capable of playing 2B, etc.).   I dare you.  I double dare you.

[BSLChrisStoner]

May 8th, 2013:
http://baltimorespor...chado-and-more/

Tucker Blair: I'm not sure where Schoop players either. It probably depends on where the Orioles end up placing Machado in 2014, if Schoop is even ready by then. The need is at second, but that does not necessarily mean he plays there. I've heard from scouts that he could potentially play second, third and even the corner outfield. That is certainly intriguing to me.

Luke Jackson: I've seen Schoop play a few times, and one thing I noticed right away is how big of a dude he is. He's listed at 6-foot-2 and 210 pounds by the Tides and I could see him filling out some more and slowing down, therefore sliding down the defensive spectrum.

 

May 1st, 2013:
https://www.baseball...nal-feel-vol-2/

 

Schoop looks too big to be a shortstop, and that’s true even though he’s not as big as the big shortstops of yore like Cal Ripken. This may be because Schoop isn’t rangy. He’s a burly 6-foot-2, 210 (according to his Norfolk Tides roster entry), and he looks even bigger—like a third baseman. Schoop’s play at shortstop, at least what I’ve seen so far, has confirmed the widely held opinion that he belongs at the hot corner (switching places in the majors, perhaps, with Manny Machado). He has a very strong arm that will play at third. His footwork and general craft at shortstop aren’t convincing—not yet, anyway. It’s important to remember that Schoop is only 21 years old, the second-youngest player in the International League, and he’s playing one of the most demanding positions on the field.

 

On April 12 at Durham, he ranged up the middle for a grounder but didn’t quite have the fluidity to hang onto the ball; it went off his glove for a single. Not long after that play, he didn’t use his feet to go back on a soft liner over his head, and as a result couldn’t attempt a leaping catch of it—another single. In game one of a doubleheader on April 20, with a runner on first, he fielded a Rich Thompson grounder as he moved toward second base and tried to start an unassisted double play. But his footwork was a bit awkward; he got a little twisted approaching the second base bag as Tim Beckham bore down on him, and then he threw the ball way over his first baseman’s head and into the stands, advancing Thompson to second.

 

Nov 9th, 2012:
http://baltimorespor...seball-america/

 

Baltimore Sports and Life: Baseball America ranked Jonathan Schoop as the Orioles top positional player within the system. I would also agree with this ranking and had him at #3 on my list as well. The power potential is evident with Schoop, and the bat-speed is plus. However, there are serious concerns about contact. From my experience watching him, and others I talk to, he is struggling with the change up and curve ball. In return, his swing seems to have become a little longer than it was at the beginning of the season. Are you concerned like I am with the reports on Schoop? On the defensive side, what are your thoughts of him at second base?

Callis: I think it’s fair to say that Schoop’s stock has taken a bit of a hit from a year ago. You’re correct in assessing his bat speed and power, as well as his difficulties. He’ll probably always strike out some but he makes enough contact. He just needs to get a lot more consistent at the plate, and that has been tough because he has been pushed so aggressively. He’s only 21 now, and maybe he can catch his breath with a full season in Double-A in 2013. His range and speed are below average, so it’s very possible that he winds up at third base rather than the middle infield, which would put more pressure on his bat.

Oct 7th, 2011
http://baltimorespor...seball-america/
 

Baltimore Sports and Life: “Futures Game participant Jonathan Schoop posted a .890 OPS in his 212 ab’s at Delmarva, earning a promotion to Frederick. With the Keys, Schoop was one of the youngest players in the Carolina League but was able to put up a .704 OPS in 299 ab’s at that level. Do you agree with Baseball Prospectus’ Kevin Goldstein that Schoop projects better as a 3rd baseman vs. 2nd base as he advances?”

 

Callis: "I think that's fair, because Schoop is going to be more strong than quick once he develops physically. There's some chance that Manny Machado outgrows shortstop and winds up at third base, which could lead to a trial at second base for Schoop, though in that case Schoop might wind up on an outfield corner."

 

June 17th, 2011:
http://baltimorespor...all-prospectus/

 

Orioles Hangout: “When you compiled the O’s Top Prospect list last November (http://www.baseballp...rticleid=12459) you had Jonathan Schoop 6^th overall in the Baltimore system. The 19 year-old did not disappoint at Low A Delmarva, posting a .890 OPS (.316 average) in 216 ab’s at that level. Due to that production, he was promoted to High A Frederick (13 for 45, 4 rbi). Any thoughts from Coaches in the South Atlantic League about his defense? Can he stay at 3^rd as he progresses? Do you ultimately see him moving to 2^nd?”

Goldstein: “I think third base is a more realistic expectation, as he’s just not that kind of fast-twitch athlete you look for in an up the middle type of player. That said, the bat should play there and I’m glad Schoop has made me look smart for putting him so high.”

 

[BSLChrisStoner]

July 18th, 2012

Jeremy Strain
http://www.baltimore...schoop/?p=37600
 

He looked passable but stiff early in the season, the 2nd time I saw him he was at SS. I'm trying to get back out to see him in August after vacation though.

Luke Jackson
He's really good around the bag, needs to work on his reads w/r/t flairs over his head.

 

Oct. 1st 2012
Camden Depot / Strain

http://camdendepot.b...-defensive.html

 

Schoop has a career fielding % of .951, which is not very good, however, seeing him in the field he's not as bad as it sounds. He has a very strong arm, however, being slightly slower to the ball than other players drives him to hurry the throw to try to hide his slow footwork with his arm. The times I've seen him get in trouble or make errors, he was either slow to the ball laterally and rushed a throw off target, or when he would make a concentration mistake with his glove, such as a bobble, or picking the glove up before the ball gets to it. He has shown that he makes most of the solid plays where he doesn't have to range too far, he's got the arm to make up for some mistakes, but the longer the throw, the less likely that it would be on target. If I had to project him at a position defensively, I would say he's a 2B with a very strong arm. He seems the most comfortable there, however if he is being showcased as a trade chip, leaving him at SS makes the most sense for now to show teams that he can play adequate enough defense there to pair with his very solid bat. 

All in all, Schoop looks to be a good offensive prospect, and while he is still young and can improve, his defense needs some work, mostly his hands, and getting faster footwork, especially in the side to side direction.

Dec. 11th 2012

 

MLB.com: Schoop has tools to make impact on O's
http://baltimore.ori...ws_bal&c_id=bal

 

As the Orioles did with Machado when he was moved from shortstop to third base, Schoop could fill a void at second base or shortstop. Should Machado remain at third base, Schoop can easily play shortstop. Conversely, if Machado is moved back to shortstop, Schoop can easily play third base. They are interchangeable players. Because of his height and build, I like Schoop best at third base.

 

Feb. 5th 2013

Keith Law ranked him #50 on his Top 100 Prospects List which was released this morning.

http://insider.espn.... ... -50#Schoop

Has him listed with potential for 25 HR power with a good OBP and above-average defense at 3B or solid-average defense at 2B.

 

July 31st, 2013

 

MASN: What should the O's do with Schoop?
http://www.masnsport...oop</span>.html

 

Comments are from me...

 

Before the season I said that if you got to August 1st, and Roberts was not an option at 2nd (either injury or under-performance) and no external option had been added; I expected that Schoop would be an option for promotion.

 

Had Schoop not missed so much time, and if Roberts was having trouble staying in the lineup, I'd be pushing for that move to be made.

 

As it is, if Schoop is not traded today, I'd prefer Schoop to play 2nd everyday at AAA during August. Maybe he can help some in September. In the off-season, I consider sending him to the AFL or a Winter League for additional ab's that he missed during the season. I would also want him to spend some time working with Bordick at 2nd, and Brady on strength/speed conditioning.

 

Last night in the 'Trade Thread', Tucker said about Schoop:
 

"He's really good, just needs to find more consistency in his plate approach.

So young for AAA. Hell, he could be at Frederick like "normal" prospects and still be on a routine pace.

 

The more I hear/see about Schoop, the more I think he could end up being a legitimate power bat at a corner OF. Might actually end up being TOO big for the infield."

 

Certainly respect Tucker's opinion here... but it would still be my priority to keep Schoop at 2nd until he proves he can not stay there.

 

 

I would have had zero problem moving Schoop in the right trade. Moving Schoop for a Bud Norris (someone I actually like), would do nothing for me.