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Lincoln


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#21 mweb08

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 07:35 PM

I think you would be hard pressed to find another leader of any era that didn't completely dehumanize the enemy they were fighting. This is something that he was able to do better than any other in my opinion. With the difference in resources, manufacturing, and manpower the North was certainly poised to quell the rebellion, but it didn't happen that way. Lincoln always had an eye on reconciling and not on destroying.

What makes a person great? To me it is the way he or she acts in the face of adversity. Lincoln was elected and tasked with the stewardship of the United States, and he passed on the country as a whole to his successor. It's not the victory over the South that was his greatest accomplishment, but that he did it without creating a guerrilla war after it was over. I think it was his focus on healing the rift that gave the South hope for the future.


I don't know, there was plenty of reasons for the South to feel destroyed and/or not being open to reconciliation. The North wasn't so kind. Just the fact that a large segment of an 80 year old nation that was very different than the North (not just because of slavery) wasn't allowed to become it's own nation is enough to be very resentful over.

Lincoln did a good job of reuniting the U.S., but the South didn't have much of a choice at that point but to surrender and go along with the conditions.

#22 DJ MC

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 08:36 PM

A rather rambling post:

It would be difficult to pick anyone who was truly great, and that's part of my point. It seems that most people think there have been many truly great presidents. I disagree.

Lincoln may be the best, but again, that's largely due to the circumstances of that time and it's very arguable if he was. What he gets credit for is ending slavery and saving the union, but I think a lot of people get it mixed up and think that his desire for the end of slavery caused the succession, which is not the case.

In terms of what the situation actually was, he gets credit in overly simplistic terms for: many of the southern states deciding to leave the nation over state rights (slavery expansion), and Lincoln, while not caring about abolishing slavery, sent a great amount of his people to war against Americans to save the union, which was successful due to advantages that would have made it difficult to lose. The people sent to war were mostly poor as people with means could buy their way out of it, and the people who went to war were in large part, not particularly caring of the cause or causes if you include slavery, yet hundreds of thousands of them died for those causes. Even the great Emancipation Proclamation only applied to slaves in states that were still fighting the Union by January 1, 1863. Yet, the end result was the 13th Amendment and the end of slavery and the beginning of an ill-fated attempt at assimilation. He also gets credit for beginning the heal the unified nation.

Most, at least outside of the Confederate states look at those net results as tremendous, and they are other than the lives lost, but looking at it more deeply does not shine a positive light on Lincoln imo. Again, you can certainly argue he handled things better than most would have, but I find it hard to look at him as the great Emancipator and I have a hard time coming to grips with him sending a few million troops to war that many would die in when most of them weren't that invested in the outcome of and the goal was not a great moral one. If it was to send them to war to free the slaves, that would be much better imo.

You don't think that preserving the United States as a whole nation is a moral cause?

#23 DJ MC

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 08:43 PM

I don't know, there was plenty of reasons for the South to feel destroyed and/or not being open to reconciliation. The North wasn't so kind. Just the fact that a large segment of an 80 year old nation that was very different than the North (not just because of slavery) wasn't allowed to become it's own nation is enough to be very resentful over.

Lincoln did a good job of reuniting the U.S., but the South didn't have much of a choice at that point but to surrender and go along with the conditions.

From everything I've read on the subject, Lincoln was planning on being highly conciliatory towards the South, and he had the political capital to keep the radicals in Congress in line. His death changed everything by not only shifting the power to the radicals, but the assassination gave them their own cause for martyrdom and vengeance against the rebels.

Because the South had to take whatever punishment they were given, which turned out to be far, far harsher than it should have been, that created the environment for the reactionary moves in the post-Reconstruction period.

#24 mweb08

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 08:49 PM

You don't think that preserving the United States as a whole nation is a moral cause?


Nope. Why would it be? I guess if you believe in Manifest Destiny it would be, but I think that was rather silly and simply an excuse to take more land from others.

#25 mweb08

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 08:54 PM

From everything I've read on the subject, Lincoln was planning on being highly conciliatory towards the South, and he had the political capital to keep the radicals in Congress in line. His death changed everything by not only shifting the power to the radicals, but the assassination gave them their own cause for martyrdom and vengeance against the rebels.

Because the South had to take whatever punishment they were given, which turned out to be far, far harsher than it should have been, that created the environment for the reactionary moves in the post-Reconstruction period.


I was talking more about the actual war part of it than afterwards. I agree about what you say in regards to the planning for after the war.

In terms of the actual war, when about 5.5% of the Confederate free people are killed in a war caused by them wanting to be independent, and some horrible things are done by Union forces, that's a tough pill to swallow when it comes to happily reuniting with the North. Not to mention the whole freeing of the slaves issue for them.

#26 DuffMan

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 12:22 PM

Posted Image

New poster out. Really looking forward to this!

#27 DuffMan

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Posted 06 September 2012 - 01:10 PM

Apparently there's going to be a trailer released for this movie next Thursday night.

#28 DuffMan

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Posted 14 September 2012 - 06:54 AM

Awesome!

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#29 DuffMan

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 06:15 AM

Here's a new trailer they aired last night, I like this one more than the first one.
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#30 BobPhelan

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 07:58 AM

I just can't get excited for this... I'll see it on Netflix but I'm in no rush.

#31 Russ

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 09:52 AM

I'm pretty excited for it, but I doubt I could get any of my family to go with me. I shall have to Red Box it.

#32 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 17 November 2012 - 05:30 PM

It was an impressive cinematic achievement. I loved that the movie was limited to Jan - April 1865. Anything beyond that would have been too immense to cover. There was a great story told here, with superior dialogue and performances provided from a cast full of recognizable character actors.

#33 Chris B

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 10:21 PM

I heard Lincoln was a hit at the theaters this weekend.
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#34 SammyBirdland

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 10:46 PM

Does he fight zombies in this one?
¡Hasta la vista, pelota!

#35 Mike B

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 12:39 AM

Going to see this tomorrow. I ama bit of a civil war and Lincoln buff so looking forward to it.
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#36 DuffMan

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 07:00 AM

Saw this the night before Thanksgiving with my wife and I really enjoyed it! There was maybe one or two Hollywoodish scenes but they were brief. Just a great story with great acting all around. DDL was amazing as Lincoln and the Academy could save some time on their awards show by just giving him the Oscar now, but it wasn't just him everbody did a great in this movie.

#37 SportsGuy

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 05:31 PM

http://www.latimes.c... ... 2579.story

#38 Mr. Oriole

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 03:36 PM

I saw this movie over Thanksgiving and it was great! It did make me wish for more yelling, screaming and pounding of fists on desks when Congress is in session now-a-days. Now they just wait to act like fools when they are in front of a camera.

#39 SammyBirdland

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 06:39 PM

I saw this movie over Thanksgiving and it was great! It did make me wish for more yelling, screaming and pounding of fists on desks when Congress is in session now-a-days. Now they just wait to act like fools when they are in front of a camera.


There's another movie where Lincoln battles members of today's Congress.

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(and yes, that's my second zombie reference in this thread ;))
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#40 DJ MC

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 07:34 PM

I saw this movie over Thanksgiving and it was great! It did make me wish for more yelling, screaming and pounding of fists on desks when Congress is in session now-a-days. Now they just wait to act like fools when they are in front of a camera.

You should be careful what you wish for...

http://en.wikipedia.... ... _by_Brooks




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