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Lincoln


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#1 Icterus galbula

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 12:47 PM

This movie is going to kick ass.

http://insidemovies....-lewis-lincoln/

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Lincoln focuses on the last four months of the president’s ’s life and the political strategizing he undertook at the close of the Civil War to ensure that slavery would be forever outlawed. “Our movie is really about a working leader who must make tough decisions and get things done in the face of overwhelming opposition,” Spielberg says.

He said the film begins with “Lincoln’s realization that the Emancipation Proclamation, the thing he is most known for, was simply a war powers act that would easily be struck down by any number of lawyers after the cessation of hostilities after the Civil War,” Spielberg says. “He needed to abolish slavery by constitutional measure — and that’s where we start.”

Among the other central characters are David Strathairn, as Lincoln’s loyal Secretary of State, William Seward; Lincoln’s sons, Tad (Dark Shadows‘ Gulliver McGrath) and Robert (Joseph Gordon-Levitt); his wife Mary Todd Lincoln (Sally Field); and “one of his most engaging and challenging adversaries, Thaddeus Stevens (Tommy Lee Jones), a radical member of Lincoln’s own party,” Spielberg says.



#2 Mackus

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 12:52 PM

Is this the one where he kills vampires?



Just kidding. This movie looks awesome. Daniel Day-Lewis is just a ridiculously gifted actor. Bill the Butcher is one of my favorite characters of all time.

#3 mweb08

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 12:55 PM

I'm probably in the minority on this, but it seems that Lincoln gets a bit too much credit for being someone whose primary goal or even a significant goal was to end slavery. That's what happened of course so he deserves praise, I just don't think slavery was as big of an issue to him as it is often portrayed.

#4 Icterus galbula

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 12:57 PM

I'm probably in the minority on this, but it seems that Lincoln gets a bit too much credit for being someone whose primary goal or even a significant goal was to end slavery. That's what happened of course so he deserves praise, I just don't think slavery was as big of an issue to him as it is often portrayed.


I will agree that there were significant political and strategic reasons to do what he did. He wasn't some moral saint.

#5 DuffMan

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 12:57 PM

They could save some time in next year's Oscars Ceremony and just give DDL the best actor trophy now.

#6 BSLChrisStoner

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 12:59 PM

I'm probably in the minority on this, but it seems that Lincoln gets a bit too much credit for being someone whose primary goal or even a significant goal was to end slavery. That's what happened of course so he deserves praise, I just don't think slavery was as big of an issue to him as it is often portrayed.


I used to argue that point a bit, but I think there was an obvious progression in his opinions on slavery as the war progressed.

#7 mweb08

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 01:06 PM

I used to argue that point a bit, but I think there was an obvious progression in his opinions on slavery as the war progressed.


Yes, he progressed. However, if the Southern states didn't secede, slavery would have very likely survived Lincoln's presidency. He was much more concerned with preserving the union than ending slavery.

#8 You Play to Win the Game

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 02:20 PM

Should be great - always a fan of JGL, and Daniel Day-Lewis.

#9 mweb08

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 02:28 PM

Oh yeah, and I do very much look forward to the movie. Daniel Day-Lewis is fantastic and I love history. So win-win.

#10 lordbrook

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 03:34 PM

Yes, he progressed. However, if the Southern states didn't secede, slavery would have very likely survived Lincoln's presidency. He was much more concerned with preserving the union than ending slavery.


I don't think anyone would argue that ending slavery was not a big priority for him, but I believe his greatness lies in how he weathered the war. I certainly don't put Lincoln and John Brown in the same category, but I don't know of many others that could have held the Union together. To me I see Churchill and Lincoln having a quality that is absolutely fascinating. They both were rather mediocre in their pre-crisis dealings, and then they both rose to embody the poise and pride of their countries when it was needed most. Maybe it's the public school jingoism in me, but there is something hallowed about Lincoln that has nothing to do with slavery and everything to do with a united America. I do realize that my opinion would most likely be different had I been born in the South and not in the West, but I really admire Lincoln and think of him as our greatest President.
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#11 NewMarketSean

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 04:00 PM

They don't make movies like this anymore. Big name director, big name cast, biopic about a historical figure...they used to do it all the time. The Aviator is the last one I can think of.

Very much looking forward to this.
I never had friends later on like the ones I had when I was twelve. Jesus, does anyone?

#12 mweb08

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 04:09 PM

Well I think much of the praise directed at him is because he ended slavery and I don't think he deserves as much credit for that as he gets.

As for preserving the union, yeah, he did well, but wouldn't that have been expected of almost any president in that situation? I don't mean that they'd be expected to do as good of a job, but they'd be expected to fight to preserve the nation, and the North had pretty significant advantages that should have resulted in victory under any decent leader.

Reasonable arguments can also be made that, considering Lincoln's motives weren't based on slavery and he would have kept slavery if it preserved the nation, that all the lives lost weren't worth keeping the South. Then end result was of course great, though.

All in all, like how we measure presidents in general, Lincoln is judged in large part due to the circumstances and opportunity of the time. He certainly did well with those circumstances and opportunities, but he didn't do much to create them.

#13 DJ MC

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 04:28 PM

First off, if this movie is even half as great as it could be, it could be one of the best historical movies ever made. I'm very excited.

I don't think anyone would argue that ending slavery was not a big priority for him, but I believe his greatness lies in how he weathered the war. I certainly don't put Lincoln and John Brown in the same category, but I don't know of many others that could have held the Union together. To me I see Churchill and Lincoln having a quality that is absolutely fascinating. They both were rather mediocre in their pre-crisis dealings, and then they both rose to embody the poise and pride of their countries when it was needed most. Maybe it's the public school jingoism in me, but there is something hallowed about Lincoln that has nothing to do with slavery and everything to do with a united America. I do realize that my opinion would most likely be different had I been born in the South and not in the West, but I really admire Lincoln and think of him as our greatest President.

I think so as well. It really ends up coming down to him or Washington, but Washington was in a completely different situation. While he did so much in the Revolution and really set the tone for a lot of what the office of President and the executive branch as a whole would become, he didn't have nearly as much to deal with as Lincoln.

I sometimes think how different the United States and the world would be if the assassination attempt failed and Lincoln survived through his term and beyond. I've believed for a while that, from a Southern perspective, the worst thing that could have happened after the end of the war was Lincoln's death at that moment in that way.

#14 lordbrook

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 04:59 PM

Well I think much of the praise directed at him is because he ended slavery and I don't think he deserves as much credit for that as he gets.

As for preserving the union, yeah, he did well, but wouldn't that have been expected of almost any president in that situation? I don't mean that they'd be expected to do as good of a job, but they'd be expected to fight to preserve the nation, and the North had pretty significant advantages that should have resulted in victory under any decent leader.

Reasonable arguments can also be made that, considering Lincoln's motives weren't based on slavery and he would have kept slavery if it preserved the nation, that all the lives lost weren't worth keeping the South. Then end result was of course great, though.

All in all, like how we measure presidents in general, Lincoln is judged in large part due to the circumstances and opportunity of the time. He certainly did well with those circumstances and opportunities, but he didn't do much to create them.


That's the beauty of historical perspective. Expecting a leader to do well in a situation is one thing, having them meet the expectation is another.

#15 mweb08

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 05:03 PM

That's the beauty of historical perspective. Expecting a leader to do well in a situation is one thing, having them meet the expectation is another.


Defeating the South is something I'd expect most leaders to be able to accomplish. Handling other matters as well as Lincoln did is a different matter.

#16 DJ MC

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 05:48 PM

Well I think much of the praise directed at him is because he ended slavery and I don't think he deserves as much credit for that as he gets.

As for preserving the union, yeah, he did well, but wouldn't that have been expected of almost any president in that situation? I don't mean that they'd be expected to do as good of a job, but they'd be expected to fight to preserve the nation, and the North had pretty significant advantages that should have resulted in victory under any decent leader.

Reasonable arguments can also be made that, considering Lincoln's motives weren't based on slavery and he would have kept slavery if it preserved the nation, that all the lives lost weren't worth keeping the South. Then end result was of course great, though.

All in all, like how we measure presidents in general, Lincoln is judged in large part due to the circumstances and opportunity of the time. He certainly did well with those circumstances and opportunities, but he didn't do much to create them.

One of the things we often forget with the benefit of hindsight is how weak overall the leadership of the nation was in the years leading up to the war, and from the very top down. There hadn't been a two-term president in approaching four decades, since Andrew Jackson, and pretty much the entire bunch in between make up the lower reaches of "top president" lists. So while we might expect a president to lead the country through that kind of crisis, just on that measure alone it is a completely different time.

That doesn't even take into account how fragmented and state-centric (not even region-centric) the nation was back then.

I tend to think that Lincoln saw slavery, regardless of his personal feelings on the institution or race, as not only the single overriding cause of the Southern rebellion and the attempted split, but something that if not eliminated entirely as soon as possible would rise again as a national problem. Or as an international one, with Britain and France and most other European nations either having a passively negative view of the institution's continued existence in America or actively pressuring for its end. He could see the problems arising within his own party over the issue, mostly among the radicals who wanted a complete stop to slavery immediately (and harsh treatment for the South).

No matter what, slavery would have ended in America soon enough; in an industrial world even basing agriculture on that system didn't make much sense economically. However, it really came down to ripping the Band-Aid off all at once or pulling it off gradually.

Of course, thanks to John Wilkes Booth, in the end the South had the Band-Aid ripped off at knife-point, and weren't too appreciative of that.

#17 mweb08

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 05:54 PM

He very well may have thought of slavery as a problem, not only morally, but for the nation itself; however, I think the evidence supports the notion that he would have let it continue throughout his presidency if there wasn't succession or if that promise would have ended the war early on.

Again, I think he did well with the situation that arose, but I do think he's overrated by many.

I'm rather cynical of political leaders (of any country) past and present so that certainly plays a role in my opinions.

#18 DJ MC

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 06:46 PM

He very well may have thought of slavery as a problem, not only morally, but for the nation itself; however, I think the evidence supports the notion that he would have let it continue throughout his presidency if there wasn't succession or if that promise would have ended the war early on.


I see what you're saying. I meant by the latter stages of the war; sorry if I wasn't clear.

Again, I think he did well with the situation that arose, but I do think he's overrated by many.

I'm rather cynical of political leaders (of any country) past and present so that certainly plays a role in my opinions.

Believe me, I don't blame you :P

The thing is, though, even if he's overrated, who else would you choose? Anyone who has been President of the United States has enough flaws to disqualify them from high marks if you look deep enough. That's the nature of the job, and what you have to do to get it.

#19 lordbrook

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 06:50 PM

I think you would be hard pressed to find another leader of any era that didn't completely dehumanize the enemy they were fighting. This is something that he was able to do better than any other in my opinion. With the difference in resources, manufacturing, and manpower the North was certainly poised to quell the rebellion, but it didn't happen that way. Lincoln always had an eye on reconciling and not on destroying.

What makes a person great? To me it is the way he or she acts in the face of adversity. Lincoln was elected and tasked with the stewardship of the United States, and he passed on the country as a whole to his successor. It's not the victory over the South that was his greatest accomplishment, but that he did it without creating a guerrilla war after it was over. I think it was his focus on healing the rift that gave the South hope for the future.

#20 mweb08

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 07:27 PM

A rather rambling post:

It would be difficult to pick anyone who was truly great, and that's part of my point. It seems that most people think there have been many truly great presidents. I disagree.

Lincoln may be the best, but again, that's largely due to the circumstances of that time and it's very arguable if he was. What he gets credit for is ending slavery and saving the union, but I think a lot of people get it mixed up and think that his desire for the end of slavery caused the succession, which is not the case.

In terms of what the situation actually was, he gets credit in overly simplistic terms for: many of the southern states deciding to leave the nation over state rights (slavery expansion), and Lincoln, while not caring about abolishing slavery, sent a great amount of his people to war against Americans to save the union, which was successful due to advantages that would have made it difficult to lose. The people sent to war were mostly poor as people with means could buy their way out of it, and the people who went to war were in large part, not particularly caring of the cause or causes if you include slavery, yet hundreds of thousands of them died for those causes. Even the great Emancipation Proclamation only applied to slaves in states that were still fighting the Union by January 1, 1863. Yet, the end result was the 13th Amendment and the end of slavery and the beginning of an ill-fated attempt at assimilation. He also gets credit for beginning the heal the unified nation.

Most, at least outside of the Confederate states look at those net results as tremendous, and they are other than the lives lost, but looking at it more deeply does not shine a positive light on Lincoln imo. Again, you can certainly argue he handled things better than most would have, but I find it hard to look at him as the great Emancipator and I have a hard time coming to grips with him sending a few million troops to war that many would die in when most of them weren't that invested in the outcome of and the goal was not a great moral one. If it was to send them to war to free the slaves, that would be much better imo.




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