137 replies to this topic

[BSLChrisStoner]

Piggy to Moore.  TD MD.

[BSLChrisStoner]

MD gets a stop on 3rd and 7... called timeout... 4:09 left.

Cavon Walker shaken up.

[BSLChrisStoner]

Jacobs with his best game of the year.

[BSLChrisStoner]

MD to the Minnesota 25 with 1:52 left.

[BSLChrisStoner]

Deflected and run back....  82 yards. Pick 6...  31-10 after the xp.

[BSLChrisStoner]

Morgan not able to come up with the catch... led into a big hit...  ball bounced up.

[glenn__davis]

I think he's the better QB today.  And I think he'd have the offense in better positions.

Maybe some of the line issues today are because of the change...  

But his limitations would be on display pretty much just as often I think.  In the 5 games with him as QB this year. he got to 200 yards passing once. Against worse teams than Minnesota.

Even if you don't include the Penn State game... in the other 4 starts, it's still 3 games of 127 yards passing or less.

 

 

It really has nothing to do with their limitations.

 

Pigrome has no idea what is going on.  Which isn't really surprising, he's a true freshmen 3* who's being asked to do more than he should.  

 

I think citing Hills' passing yardage is pretty pointless, as he is more of a running QB as well.  He moved the ball much better against Penn State than Pigrome did.

[Mike in STL]

I think he's the better QB today.  And I think he'd have the offense in better positions.


Maybe some of the line issues today are because of the change...  


But his limitations would be on display pretty much just as often I think.  In the 5 games with him as QB this year. he got to 200 yards passing once. Against worse teams than Minnesota.


Even if you don't include the Penn State game... in the other 4 starts, it's still 3 games of 127 yards passing or less.


 

 
It really has nothing to do with their limitations.
 
Pigrome has no idea what is going on.  Which isn't really surprising, he's a true freshmen 3* who's being asked to do more than he should.  
 
I think citing Hills' passing yardage is pretty pointless, as he is more of a running QB as well.  He moved the ball much better against Penn State than Pigrome did.

Neither one is any good. You have to recruit a true QB. Not these athletes who can throw, albeit not any good,

IMO, Durkin has to find one in the next class, and needs to be taking the reigns in 2018. Having a good defense (which is still questionable) and 6 RBs, and small receivers will only go so far.

You need a QB. They haven't had a real one since Chris Turner. Not saying they need a Heisman candidate. But guys like Turner, Hollenbach, Statham, I'd take all of them over anyone they started in the last 6,7 years.

Pigrome should line up at RB. Let Hills get you through the year.

[BSLZackKiesel]

Not much to say about this game. Piggy simply isn't ready to compete at this level. We all knew that. Have to hope Hills is ready to go against Michigan State, because it could get ugly otherwise.

[BSLZackKiesel]

Neither one is any good. You have to recruit a true QB. Not these athletes who can throw, albeit not any good,

IMO, Durkin has to find one in the next class, and needs to be taking the reigns in 2018. Having a good defense (which is still questionable) and 6 RBs, and small receivers will only go so far.

You need a QB. They haven't had a real one since Chris Turner. Not saying they need a Heisman candidate. But guys like Turner, Hollenbach, Statham, I'd take all of them over anyone they started in the last 6,7 years.

Pigrome should line up at RB. Let Hills get you through the year.

Kasim Hill coming in next year's class. Accomplished passer with some mobility, 4-star guy.

 

Caleb Henderson will be eligible starting next year. 4-star transfer from UNC. My money would be on him starting next year. Again, very accomplished passer with some mobility.

 

And I'm with you, Piggy is a great athlete but needs to find another position. Let him play RB or WR, but his mechanics are such that I just can't see him becoming a successful Big Ten QB.

[BSLChrisStoner]

It really has nothing to do with their limitations.

 

Pigrome has no idea what is going on.  Which isn't really surprising, he's a true freshmen 3* who's being asked to do more than he should.  

 

I think citing Hills' passing yardage is pretty pointless, as he is more of a running QB as well.  He moved the ball much better against Penn State than Pigrome did.

 

Hills moving the ball better against PSU is pointless to me.  He's the Senior, he prepared all week to start, etc. I totally agree, that additional experience makes him 'better' right now.

I don't think showing Hills yardage passing is pointless... because it illustrates that against weaker competition, he was doing nothing really through the air. Too many weapons not getting the ball at all.

Might not (probably wouldn't) improve under Pigrome, but that's basically my point. If it's not happening under Hills, you might as well go to the younger guy who will be around going forward.

Hills:
Howard: 14 for 19, 126 yards, 1 rushing attempt, 5 yards

FIU: 13 for 18, 210 yards, 3 TD's, 8 rushing attempts, 52 yards
UCF: 10 for 23, 127 yards, 16 rushing attempts, 29 yards
Purdue: 8 of 13, 87 yards, 2 TD's, 1 pick, 10 rushing attempts, 18 yards
PSU: 5 of 7, 72 yards, 1 TD, 1 pick, 9 rushing attempts, 16 yards

Pigrome (just vs. PSU, and Minnesota):
PSU: 5 of 9, 28 yards, 10 rushing attempts, 39 yards
Minnesota: 18 of 37, 161 yards, 1 TD, 2 picks, 25 rushes, 71 yards

Substantively, I don't think Hills would have done anything different today, aside from probably avoiding the first pick Pigrome had.

I'd much rather continue to see Pigrome continue to start.  Hills would probably do 'better', but I'd rather give the experience to the guy who will be here next year... when I don't believe the improvement which would exist with Hills would really mean anything.

 

Agree to disagree I guess... and fully expect Hills will start next week.  Will be rooting for him.

 

 

*As an aside, MD would be further along if some of the younger guys on the O-line had gained  more experience over the last 2 years, vs. Edsall stating their time will come later. Now they are getting extended game experience, and it's a learning curve.  Whenever you are not built to really compete and win, you are better off giving the younger player more experience, and hoping that experience makes him part of the solution later imo.

[Mike in STL]

Michigan State is bad. Losing to Northwestern at home right now.

It will be a bad loss if MD doesn't win, or keep it really close next week. Another 15+ point loss would be unacceptable.

[BSLZackKiesel]

See, where we disagree is the whole notion of playing younger guys just to have them gain experience, even if they aren't the best players at their positions.

 

Imagine you're Durkin, and you decide to start Pigrome, not because he's the better option at the position (they've established that by starting Hills all season), but because he'll be there in future years. You're conceding to your entire program and fanbase that you're not going to win many games this year, so you're basically giving up on wins and building for the future. A few things happen when you start doing that. For one, morale in the locker room is gone. How do you get guys up to win games when you're not even playing your best, most experienced players? Second, you lose fans, and you lose support from boosters. Finally, it hurts you in recruiting. Why do guys want to stay for their senior years when you're benching them if you're having a down year? How do you justify that to the locker room?

 

If the younger player is better than the experienced player, by all means he should be starting. But we're in agreement that Hills gives the team a better chance to win games than Piggy does. That should be the end of the conversation. No matter where your program is in their building process, winning games is the biggest priority. That's just the way it is. And if your coach isn't putting the program in the best position to win games this year, he's not doing his job.

[BSLChrisStoner]

See, where we disagree is the whole notion of playing younger guys just to have them gain experience, even if they aren't the best players at their positions.

 

Imagine you're Durkin, and you decide to start Pigrome, not because he's the better option at the position (they've established that by starting Hills all season), but because he'll be there in future years. You're conceding to your entire program and fanbase that you're not going to win many games this year, so you're basically giving up on wins and building for the future. A few things happen when you start doing that. For one, morale in the locker room is gone. How do you get guys up to win games when you're not even playing your best, most experienced players? Second, you lose fans, and you lose support from boosters. Finally, it hurts you in recruiting. Why do guys want to stay for their senior years when you're benching them if you're having a down year? How do you justify that to the locker room?

 

If the younger player is better than the experienced player, by all means he should be starting. But we're in agreement that Hills gives the team a better chance to win games than Piggy does. That should be the end of the conversation. No matter where your program is in their building process, winning games is the biggest priority. That's just the way it is. And if your coach isn't putting the program in the best position to win games this year, he's not doing his job.

 

Where I'd agree with you is if there was a substantive difference between starting the experienced player, and not.

In this case, there's not.

Starting Hills vs. Pigrome in every game here through the rest of the year will have a basically nil impact on MD's wins / losses.

Edsall had the approach that younger players mostly sit. Gain experience in the system. RS if possible.

So, you had a player like Damian Prince who didn't play as a True Freshman, and as a RS Freshman started in 6 games (albeit did see action in 10.) Or Derwin Gray who didn't play as a True Freshman, and got into 2 games last year as a RS Freshman.

 

In comparison, you have a Terrance Davis who has appeared in every game this year.

 

Couple of things here... each individual is different. Maybe Prince and Gray simply weren't ready to play at the collegiate level (even though Gray did have the year at Fork Union after HS).  Davis coming from DeMatha could be that much more prepared.

Still, overall I think the point is that Davis is getting time earlier in his career, and will be better for it.  Prince and Gray should be further along. Sometimes you just can't develop as a player until you are getting on-field, in-game reps.



You want to reward players like Hills who have stayed with the program, worked to develop, and are recognized as a leader within the lockeroom... I get that, respect that.

But the difference in him playing from this point on in the season will make no difference.  MD will get crushed against Michigan and Ohio State, and likely Nebraska with or without him on the field. MD will compete against Indiana, Rutgers, no matter what.  Even against a struggling Michigan State team, MD figures to lose.

If there was a Kevin Hogan type at QB.... I'd definitely go with the Senior. Hell, if it was a Chris Turner, or a Hollenbach...  I'd lean that way as well.

With Hills... I just don't feel it all.

 

And I completely disagree with the premise that you lose the fanbase, boosters, etc by conceding the obvious that you aren't ready to compete.

It's known.

It's why you (Durkin) have the job in the first place.  The program was in shambles, and required a new HC.

So you take advantage of that moment in time, and you focus on the future imo....  I think most people would understand that in Y1.
 

 

 

But again... Durkin is going to go back to Hills...  and that's cool. He's prioritizing the experience, Hills being 'better' now, and trying to win each week now....  let's hope that experience makes a difference next week vs. MSU.
 

[glenn__davis]

Where I'd agree with you is if there was a substantive difference between starting the experienced player, and not.

In this case, there's not.

Starting Hills vs. Pigrome in every game here through the rest of the year will have a basically nil impact on MD's wins / losses.
.

 

i just don't see how you can watch the offense under HIlls and under Pigrome and come to that conclusion.

 

Hills didn't rack up any passing yards earlier because he didn't need to.  We were running the ball at will, and ideally that's still what we'd like to do.  I don't believe Hills' passing stats are any indication of what he can do as a passer right now.

 

I have much more confidence in Hills' ability to make the reads and the throws when he needs to as opposed to Pigrome.  Again, just watch the PSU game.  The offense was moving with Hills.  With Pigrome it died.  I agree with everyone that the QB position needs improvement, but for now Hills is superior and I don't think it's close.

[BSLZackKiesel]

i just don't see how you can watch the offense under HIlls and under Pigrome and come to that conclusion.

 

Hills didn't rack up any passing yards earlier because he didn't need to.  We were running the ball at will, and ideally that's still what we'd like to do.  I don't believe Hills' passing stats are any indication of what he can do as a passer right now.

 

I have much more confidence in Hills' ability to make the reads and the throws when he needs to as opposed to Pigrome.  Again, just watch the PSU game.  The offense was moving with Hills.  With Pigrome it died.  I agree with everyone that the QB position needs improvement, but for now Hills is superior and I don't think it's close.

And more than that, defenses are forced to actually respect Hills' arm. They don't load the box nearly as often as they do against Piggy. Did you see Minnesota's defense today? Loading the box, daring Piggy to throw. And they were able to do that all game long, because he couldn't read the defense and put the ball in the correct spots. Obviously those penalties were killer, and Hills wouldn't do much more than Piggy with 3rd-and-20. But there were also opportunities on 3rd-and-managables where Hills would have made the correct read and kept drives alive.

 

Glenn, you're absolutely right about the passing numbers not telling the whole story. If he had attempted more passes, his numbers would be better. But when you're having such great success with the running game, why throw the ball? Hills has a much better grasp on this offense, which allows it to run much more smoothly. They're able to use the full playbook with him, as opposed to Piggy who was just introduced to it a little over 2 months ago.

 

Perry isn't perfect, but the offense actually moves the ball when he's in the game. That's pretty important.

 

Edit: Stats never tell the whole story, but here are the number of first downs gained by the offense:

 

First 4 Games (Hills): 21.5 first downs/game

Last 2 Games (Pigrome): 13.5 first downs/game

 

Obviously the first 4 games were against worse opponents, but that's still a glaring difference. Pigrome is unable to keep the offense on the field, because he doesn't have the ability to convert those crucial 3rd-and-manageables with his arm. That means your offense stalls, your defense is on the field much more than they should be, and your tempo offense can't get rolling.

[BSLMikeLowe]

But again... Durkin is going to go back to Hills...  and that's cool. He's prioritizing the experience, Hills being 'better' now, and trying to win each week now....  let's hope that experience makes a difference next week vs. MSU.

 

As much as I'm with you on preferring Pigrome over Hills at this point, Chris, I do have to concede that Zack raises a very valid point. By now we no doubt have a very long list as to why we believe Durkin is a better coach than Edsall was. One of those reasons, I'd think we agree, is that rather than coming in and alienating the players that he inherited like his predecessor, Durkin has gotten them to really buy in to his vision for the program, even though the payoff likely won't be within sight for another season or two. That's why we've seen relatively few players leave the program so far as opposed to before. But as much as the players seem to like the new staff, if you bench the senior QB who is (albeit only slightly IMO) a better option now in favor of a true freshman, I think that could create a poor perception among some of the more experienced players, and maybe even divide the locker room and team chemistry.

 

I'd love to see Pigrome get the rest of the season just to see if he can get straightened out to the point where he can go in to next season as a legitimate Big Ten QB, or at least really compete with Hill and Henderson for the starting job. But in looking at the entire picture I can see why that's not the best option.

[BSLChrisStoner]

As much as I'm with you on preferring Pigrome over Hills at this point, Chris, I do have to concede that Zack raises a very valid point. By now we no doubt have a very long list as to why we believe Durkin is a better coach than Edsall was. One of those reasons, I'd think we agree, is that rather than coming in and alienating the players that he inherited like his predecessor, Durkin has gotten them to really buy in to his vision for the program, even though the payoff likely won't be within sight for another season or two. That's why we've seen relatively few players leave the program so far as opposed to before. But as much as the players seem to like the new staff, if you bench the senior QB who is (albeit only slightly IMO) a better option now in favor of a true freshman, I think that could create a poor perception among some of the more experienced players, and maybe even divide the locker room and team chemistry.

 

I'd love to see Pigrome get the rest of the season just to see if he can get straightened out to the point where he can go in to next season as a legitimate Big Ten QB, or at least really compete with Hill and Henderson for the starting job. But in looking at the entire picture I can see why that's not the best option.

 

I think given what Hills did in the off-season... in-terms of being first in, last out with practice... coaching up his teammates, buying into the system.... going back to Pittsburgh every weekend to train further on his own....  those things matter. You have to try and reward that.

My feeling is that they did not by starting Hills in games 1-5... and not letting him lose his job to injury (meaning he will start again when healthy for G7 Saturday).... but that won't change my opinion that you (the roster as a whole) would be better off the rest of the way with Pigrome gaining this experience.

When we get to next August, and the options are Pigrome...  Hill (Freshman), or Henderson (transfer who missed '16), I think we will wish that Pigrome got as much time as possible here in '16 to prepare himself as an option for '17.

 

 

But w/e...  don't want to root against Hills. Seems like a good guy.  Go produce vs. the Spartans.

 

In Durkin I Trust.