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ESPN: Bradshaw, Montana or Brady: Who's the best QB in Super Bowl history?


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#41 Mike in STL

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Posted 03 February 2016 - 07:14 PM

I don't want to quote all that Mike, but here's a brief response:

 

I don't think these guys are being penalized for things outside of their control. If anything, many of these players have been rewarded much more than penalized for things outside of their control. Emmitt for instance is considered one of the very best RB's ever, was paid a ton of money, and had immense team success all in part due to that supporting cast that was outside of his control. If he's drafted by Tampa, do you think he's rated equally, higher, or lower? Could Montana possibly be rated much higher? But if he was in a mediocre situation, he's probably not ranked nearly as high.

 

I feel the guys that are often unfairly rated are the ones that didn't have good situations, so their numbers were hurt, they didn't get rings, didn't get as much media coverage, etc. 

 

I think it's pretty clear that the guys in the good situations don't get hurt that much in rankings because there aren't nearly as many contrarians like myself as there are people who mostly take the results at face value, and even people like myself probably rank guys higher than if they had been in a crappy situation. 

I mean, we'll never know what Emmitt would have done without that Cowboys O-line. His brief stint in AZ was at the end and isn't accurate of what he was in his prime. It's impossible to say what if this guy was in this situation instead.

 

We know Montana put up respectable numbers and won two SBs without Jerry Rice on the team yet.

 

I agree with the bolded part. It's why Helton's retirement announcement went damn near unnoticed. It's the Rockies, no one cares. One WS appearance and all the attention is on the Red Sox anyway. 


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#42 papasmurfbell

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Posted 03 February 2016 - 07:18 PM

There were ppl wanting Montana benched earlier bc they wanted Young as the starter.  With Young I think the 9ers have more rings.



#43 RShack

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Posted 03 February 2016 - 07:20 PM

There were ppl wanting Montana benched earlier bc they wanted Young as the starter.  

 

That was you and who else?    ;-)


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#44 papasmurfbell

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Posted 03 February 2016 - 07:25 PM

http://articles.sun-...montana-s-steve
Or the newspapers also.  Again read it in the Blind Side.

 

http://washington.cb...-recent-memory/



#45 RShack

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Posted 03 February 2016 - 07:40 PM

http://articles.sun-...montana-s-steve
Or the newspapers also.  Again read it in the Blind Side.

 

http://washington.cb...-recent-memory/

 

I was just yanking your chain...   ;-)


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#46 mweb08

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Posted 03 February 2016 - 07:52 PM

I don't want to quote all that Mike, but here's a brief response:
 
I don't think these guys are being penalized for things outside of their control. If anything, many of these players have been rewarded much more than penalized for things outside of their control. Emmitt for instance is considered one of the very best RB's ever, was paid a ton of money, and had immense team success all in part due to that supporting cast that was outside of his control. If he's drafted by Tampa, do you think he's rated equally, higher, or lower? Could Montana possibly be rated much higher? But if he was in a mediocre situation, he's probably not ranked nearly as high.
 
I feel the guys that are often unfairly rated are the ones that didn't have good situations, so their numbers were hurt, they didn't get rings, didn't get as much media coverage, etc. 
 
I think it's pretty clear that the guys in the good situations don't get hurt that much in rankings because there aren't nearly as many contrarians like myself as there are people who mostly take the results at face value, and even people like myself probably rank guys higher than if they had been in a crappy situation. 

I mean, we'll never know what Emmitt would have done without that Cowboys O-line. His brief stint in AZ was at the end and isn't accurate of what he was in his prime. It's impossible to say what if this guy was in this situation instead.
 
We know Montana put up respectable numbers and won two SBs without Jerry Rice on the team yet.
 
I agree with the bolded part. It's why Helton's retirement announcement went damn near unnoticed. It's the Rockies, no one cares. One WS appearance and all the attention is on the Red Sox anyway. 


We'll never know, but I don't think it's reasonable that guys like him have been penalized more than they've been rewarded based on things outside their control. I'm not sure what situation Emmitt could have been in to end up being ranked higher. Plenty of situations would have resulted in a lower ranking imo.
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#47 SportsGuy

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Posted 03 February 2016 - 07:53 PM

Brady wasn't even good early on in the SB wins. He gets credit for not screwing things but it's not like his number were that great.

#48 RShack

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Posted 03 February 2016 - 07:54 PM

We'll never know, but I don't think it's reasonable that guys like him have been penalized more than they've been rewarded based on things outside their control. I'm not sure what situation Emmitt could have been in to end up being ranked higher. Plenty of situations would have resulted in a lower ranking imo.

 

They get penalized in discussions like this one... it's the Jim Palmer Effect  ;-)


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#49 RShack

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Posted 03 February 2016 - 07:55 PM

Brady wasn't even good early on in the SB wins. He gets credit for not screwing things but it's not like his number were that great.

 

Yes, that was his claim to fame for a long time:  he didn't screw up... which is what Belichick loved more than anything....


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#50 Mike in STL

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Posted 03 February 2016 - 07:57 PM

There were ppl wanting Montana benched earlier bc they wanted Young as the starter.  With Young I think the 9ers have more rings.

 

How many more? He came in 87, they won rings with Montana in 88 and 89, and Montana got to the NFC title game again in 90, but left the game with injury. It was the end of the Montana era, and Young's show after that, and he didn't win a ring for four more years 

 

You're pretty much trolling now...if you weren't before. 


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#51 papasmurfbell

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Posted 03 February 2016 - 08:03 PM

Yes, that was his claim to fame for a long time:  he didn't screw up... which is what Belichick loved more than anything....

And they have moved on from that point now.

 

 

 

How many more? He came in 87, they won rings with Montana in 88 and 89, and Montana got to the NFC title game again in 90, but left the game with injury. It was the end of the Montana era, and Young's show after that, and he didn't win a ring for four more years 

 

You're pretty much trolling now...if you weren't before. 

I don't know.  It is speculative.  There is no way of knowing unless the multiverse exists and we can travel from reality to reality.



#52 RShack

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Posted 03 February 2016 - 08:07 PM

I guess the people around him on that juggernaut franchise, the KC Chiefs, also made Montana look good...

 

Montana was traded to the Kansas City Chiefs in April 1993. His trade, along with the free-agent signing of star Los Angeles Raiders running back Marcus Allen to the Chiefs, generated much media attention and excitement in Kansas City.

 

[ ... ]

 

Montana was injured for part of the 1993 season, but was still selected to his final Pro Bowl and led the Chiefs in two come-from-behind wins in the 1993 playoffs, reaching the AFC Championship Game where Kansas City lost to the Buffalo Bills. In their Wild Card win over the Pittsburgh Steelers, he threw a 7-yard fourth down touchdown pass to send the game into overtime. Then against the Houston Oilers, he led the team to 28 second half points, including three touchdown passes to earn the 29th fourth quarter comeback win of his career. Including their two playoff victories that year (the Chiefs only had one prior playoff win since 1970 Super Bowl IV), the 1993 Chiefs won 13 games, tying the franchise record for wins in a season.

 

Montana returned healthy to the Chiefs in 1994, starting all but two games. His highlights included a classic duel with John Elway (which Montana won, 31–28) on Monday Night Football, and a memorable game in week 2 when Montana played against his old team, the 49ers and Steve Young. In a much-anticipated match-up, Montana and the Chiefs prevailed and defeated the 49ers, 24–17. Montana led his team to a final playoff appearance in 1994.

 

https://en.wikipedia...sas_City_Chiefs


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#53 mweb08

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Posted 03 February 2016 - 08:08 PM

We'll never know, but I don't think it's reasonable that guys like him have been penalized more than they've been rewarded based on things outside their control. I'm not sure what situation Emmitt could have been in to end up being ranked higher. Plenty of situations would have resulted in a lower ranking imo.

 
They get penalized in discussions like this one... it's the Jim Palmer Effect  ;-)


What exactly is the penalty here?

And skill position players are very dependent on the rest of their offense, more so than Palmer with the O's defense.

#54 RShack

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Posted 03 February 2016 - 08:11 PM

What exactly is the penalty here?

And skill position players are very dependent on the rest of their offense, more so than Palmer with the O's defense.

 

Opiners dinging greats because they benefited from being around other greats...


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#55 mweb08

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Posted 03 February 2016 - 08:21 PM

What exactly is the penalty here?


And skill position players are very dependent on the rest of their offense, more so than Palmer with the O's defense.

 
Opiners dinging greats because they benefited from being around other greats...


Which is totally fair because being around other greats, in this case as a running back, helps the player. If you honestly think he'd be ranked higher if he played for a worse team, then you can talk about him being penalized, otherwise he's been treated fairly or rewarded.

#56 papasmurfbell

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Posted 03 February 2016 - 08:47 PM

I guess the people around him on that juggernaut franchise, the KC Chiefs, also made Montana look good...

 

Montana was traded to the Kansas City Chiefs in April 1993. His trade, along with the free-agent signing of star Los Angeles Raiders running back Marcus Allen to the Chiefs, generated much media attention and excitement in Kansas City.

 

[ ... ]

 

Montana was injured for part of the 1993 season, but was still selected to his final Pro Bowl and led the Chiefs in two come-from-behind wins in the 1993 playoffs, reaching the AFC Championship Game where Kansas City lost to the Buffalo Bills. In their Wild Card win over the Pittsburgh Steelers, he threw a 7-yard fourth down touchdown pass to send the game into overtime. Then against the Houston Oilers, he led the team to 28 second half points, including three touchdown passes to earn the 29th fourth quarter comeback win of his career. Including their two playoff victories that year (the Chiefs only had one prior playoff win since 1970 Super Bowl IV), the 1993 Chiefs won 13 games, tying the franchise record for wins in a season.

 

Montana returned healthy to the Chiefs in 1994, starting all but two games. His highlights included a classic duel with John Elway (which Montana won, 31–28) on Monday Night Football, and a memorable game in week 2 when Montana played against his old team, the 49ers and Steve Young. In a much-anticipated match-up, Montana and the Chiefs prevailed and defeated the 49ers, 24–17. Montana led his team to a final playoff appearance in 1994.

 

https://en.wikipedia...sas_City_Chiefs

Hell I brought KC up hours ago.



#57 NewMarketSean

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Posted 08 February 2016 - 09:26 AM

Still think Denver made a mistake going with Peyton, papasmurfbell?

 

Whether or not he was a big part of winning last night, he was the QB of a SB winning team.


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#58 NewMarketSean

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Posted 08 February 2016 - 09:27 AM

Manning's played poorly in the big game. No one can take away his two rings and he's had a stellar career, but his stats in the SB are ugly.

 

http://www.pro-footb...e00/super-bowl/


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#59 papasmurfbell

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Posted 08 February 2016 - 02:06 PM

Still think Denver made a mistake going with Peyton, papasmurfbell?

 

Whether or not he was a big part of winning last night, he was the QB of a SB winning team.

I could have QBed them to a win.  Both his rings were less him than Ds that were fantastic.



#60 NewMarketSean

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Posted 08 February 2016 - 02:16 PM

I could have QBed them to a win.  Both his rings were less him than Ds that were fantastic.

 

I can't disagree with you but his stats, especially during the first 3 years he was there, were fantastic and he was a large part of why they got to the playoffs in the first place.


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