110 replies to this topic

[mweb08]

What's the theory for voting for Edgar Martinez over Manny Ramirez?  Isn't Manny basically Edgar plus power and postseason success?  Does it just come down to PED's?

 

That and Manny's defense being so bad that he would have actually been better off as a DH. But if the PEDs aren't a factor, Manny is a better candidate IMO. Both are deserving.

[Mike in STL]

That and Manny's defense being so bad that he would have actually been better off as a DH. But if the PEDs aren't a factor, Manny is a better candidate IMO. Both are deserving.

I get the feeling that voters are going to make Manny wait. They are going to be able to change their mind on Bonds, Clemens, others who may not have even broken the rules at the time nor failed a drug test. But with Manny there were failed tests twice after the strict rules were put in place. I can see voters frowning upon that a little more as it's a little higher level of disrespect to get the second suspension and have the "I'm retiring anyway" attitude about it. 

 

I'd bet the house on David Ortiz treating this past year the same way and just not getting caught. There is no explanation for it. If it looks like a rat and smells like a rat, it's a rat...or Coach K.

 

They're going to have to have one class to get rid of the log jam created by these steroid guys on the ballot. Manny should get in. But I'm fine waiting a couple years. I'd put Edgar over Manny on mine this year because Bonds and Clemens and others should be in already and are taking up a spot that I would otherwise write Manny in for. 

[RShack]

Manny Ramirez is the most relaxed hitter I've ever seen... I'd vote him in just for that...

[Mike in STL]

Manny Ramirez is the most relaxed hitter I've ever seen... I'd vote him in just for that...

No one is more relaxed at the plate than Matt Wieters. He's so relaxed he's got those weak pop flies and grounders down to a science.

[SportsGuy]

http://www.espn.com/...all-fame-ballot

 

Mussina not in but Hoffman in is so dumb.

[RShack]

Manny Ramirez is the most relaxed hitter I've ever seen... I'd vote him in just for that...

 

No one is more relaxed at the plate than Matt Wieters. He's so relaxed he's got those weak pop flies and grounders down to a science.

 

But if you look at what I said, I didn't say "batter", I said "hitter"...  

[BSLChrisStoner]

SI: How I decide who gets my Hall of Fame vote, and why steroid users don't belong

[DJ MC]

SI: How I decide who gets my Hall of Fame vote, and why steroid users don't belong

 

What is jarring is that the Steroid Era stands apart from any era in the game’s history.

 

You're right, Tom, because you were silent on the topic during the era.

[Mike in STL]

SI: How I decide who gets my Hall of Fame vote, and why steroid users don't belong

Prime examples why cherry picking and past precedent are the worst ways to evaluate who gets in the hall.

 

Verducci talks about Fred McGriff. While he had a long career, he thinks steroid guys stats drowned him out. I think he just peaked way too early in a long career.  He picks out "Only 37 players have on OPS+ of 129 or better and 10,000 plate appearances.... all in the hall that aren't tied to steroids," McGriff had an OPS+ of 134 and the 10,000+ PAs 

 

So thats the benchmark? If only John Olerud played one or two more seasons he would have amassed the PAs to get in the hall by this cherry picked metric. Nevermind the gold glove defense Olerud played that McGriff never did. Don't get me wrong, Olerud was a great player, but not hall worthy. If Ken Singleton played 2 more seasons...hall of Verducci. Please tell me that he put Bagwell on his ballot and didn't leave him off because he was 569, or one season, shy of 10,000 PAs despite being a better player than McGriff, easily, and a 149 OPS+ since thats the stat he picked.

 

And why did he pick 129 for OPS+? Was it random? Its not a round number like 130, or 140 or 120? Is it because in two years when Bobby Abreu is on the ballot with his 10,081 PAs, Verducci can vouch for not voting for him because of his 128 OPS+. Sorry Bobby. You needed 1 more OPS+. Dwight Evans missed out by 2 OPS+. Rusty Staub missed out by 5 OPS+. Dave Parker, misses the hall by 8 OPS+, as well as Harold Baines.

 

Now, Adrian Beltre should be a HOFer when all is said and done, IMO. But he's got an OPS+ of 116 despite 11,260 PAs and counting. Verducci going to hold that against him and just omit defense all together?

 

He brings up everyone with 475+ HRs is in the hall that isn't attached to roids. Sorry Carlos Delgado. Needed to hit two more home runs, and play for two more years, and you meet the criteria. (138 OPS+, 8,657 PAs) Shoulda hit 6 that one game instead of 4. Chipper Jones was 7 HRs shy of 475. (141 OPS+, 10,614 PAs) Chipper Jones is certainly hall worthy. 

 

Other than that, he comes off sounding like an old curmudgeon voter who is pissed off that younger writers are getting votes and not using them they way he would...but then he backs that asshat Murray Chass. 

[DuffMan]

If/when Mussina goes in does he get a NY hat or an O's hat?  And if it's O's, does that mean Baltimore retires his number and puts in the courtyard with the others?

[Mike in STL]

If/when Mussina goes in does he get a NY hat or an O's hat?  And if it's O's, does that mean Baltimore retires his number and puts in the courtyard with the others?

Seems to me it's a little too late for that. My guess is he gets a Yankee hat anyway since they paid him more. But if he does decide on an O's hat, then it's a little awkward to retire a number of guy that they didn't retire 17 years ago. I'm pretty sure they didn't even give the number a period of unofficial retirement and Josh Towers wore 35 the very next year. Daniel Cabrera. Brad Bergesen, Brad Brach off the top of my head.

I'm pretty sure all the others were never worn again after they left. Even Eddie and Frank who had also went to different teams.

Buck has been quoted as saying that what all those guys with statues have in common is they all won championships. Moose never did. Maybe that is some kind of deciding factor, right wrong or indifferent. But I like the high standard. Other than a special case like if Moose pitched his whole career here and didn't win a title, it's kind of like I think Kentucky only hangs Chapionship banners in their arena. No conference title banners, no final four banners. Just titles get the recognition. I like that.

It's kind of dumb to me that the Capitals have like 15 banners of divison titles. Presidents trophy is worthy of recognition, conference title as well. But they have a lot of banners that say "we got into the playoffs like half the league does and didn't do anything".

Getting off topic... But yeah. I don't see him going in as an O. I think that bridge is pretty much burned. He has had nothing to do with this community since he left. He was apparently a dick to be around. The O's don't owe him a statue, IMO, even if he choses the hat of the team that gave him his start.

[Icterus galbula]

Bagwell, Raines, and Pudge.

 

http://baseballhall....f/class-of-2017

 

All deserving, wish the logjam could have been cleared even more.

[Icterus galbula]

327 Trevor Hoffman 74.0%

317 Vladimir Guerrero 71.7%

259 Edgar Martinez 58.6%

239 Roger Clemens 54.1%

238 Barry Bonds 53.8%

229 Mike Mussina 51.8%

199 Curt Schilling 45.0%

151 Lee Smith 34.2%

105 Manny Ramirez 23.8%

97 Larry Walker 21.9%

[Nigel Tufnel]

I wonder if the Nats will honor Raines at a game this year.

[Nigel Tufnel]

Zero votes for Mora.

[Icterus galbula]

Alright everyone, Raines is in. Get on the Moose bandwagon. 

[Pedro Cerrano]

All three deserve it. Congrats to them.

[Pedro Cerrano]

Next year Hoffman and Vlad look like locks.

[Pedro Cerrano]

72% for Vlad. 24% for Manny.

The roids thing is absurd.

[SportsGuy]

Glad these 3 got in.

Moose only having 52% is a joke.

This is still a shitty process