Are you aware that Rolen had a better OPS+ for his career than did Dawson right? The same as Molitor's as well. Despite playing a position that doesn't typically generate as much offense (at least when Molitor moved off 2B and 3B).
It's pretty clear who brought more defensive value to the table too, and by a whole lot.
If you want to say guys like him and Raines are only great at one thing, well then you just aren't paying much attention.
BTW, what was Brooks great at besides defense?
What did you say that justifies Dawson being a no doubt about it guy (him taking 9 years to get elected flies in the face of an argument you just made and made previously)?
So now you're justifying Brock as a legit HOF'er so you have no right to complain about precedent being used to compare Brock to Raines.
Raines was a more productive offensive player than Molitor on a rate basis. But hitz. I guess I have nothing else to say to someone that is a slave to milestones like that.
And real numbers like hits. Hits mean something, but it's hard to take someone seriously who says that line about real numbers and talks about me cherry picking numbers like OPS+. WTF?
I'm not saying that Rolen and Raines were necessarily better than Molitor and Biggio, but there isn't good justification for saying the latter are no doubt HOF'ers and the former aren't worthy. And they were better than Brock, who is a great example of lowering this precious bar of yours, yet you talk him up.
And the last line is total BS man. I haven't even centered my arguments around WAR. Meanwhile, until now you've done just about nothing to justify your position on many of these players besides just state things as fact with little to nothing to back them up.
Are you aware that Raines was 276th in OPS+? Wanna put that on his plaque? Mack said OPS+ is a quick snapshot of a players ability more or less. Sorry. It's the Hall of Fame. I'd rather examine a lot more than a quick snapshot.
Brooks, besides being an MVP and a top five finisher in MVP voting five times, and leading the league in RBI once (Now you're gonna be pissed. cardinal sin. I brought up RBI). Maybe Shack should answer what Brooks was good at beside defense for you since it was before my time. Maybe Shack can enlighten us about Lou Brock while he's at it. Since I actually have a new found respect for the mans stats after reading more about him now. Thanks for that.
Mack has been in your corner on this and also defends Dawson, if you don't. My take on Dawson was.... "Dawson was an all around talent, including defense which you have to account for. Still stole over 300 bases for a power hitter. Played in the same era as Raines "when runs were hard to come by" as you say. Played on the same team and hit over 400 homers, 500 doubles, nearly 100 triples. Also 8 gold gloves.
Is Brock > Raines? Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe Shack can settle that debate since he's probably the only guy here who saw the man play.
You have absolutely brought up WAR. You brought it up when I did the blind resume comparing Bobby Abreu's superior numbers to Raines. And your response was, but Raines has 10 more WAR. And you pointed out his WAR total again later on.
Look. more that a few times now you have accused me of just spouting off bullshit without facts, when all I've done is use facts, numbers, awards, things that are 100% fact to justify my arguments. It's not what you agree with. Fine. But I'm not just making shit up because i went to BBRef to look up these guys resume's and not Fan Graphs. I don't even shit on advance stats. I welcome it, although not knowing what they all mean. But counting stats mean something to me to. They don't to you. Fine. That's your opinion.
69% of the writers agree with you. 31% agree with me. Neither of us are "wrong". The 3 assholes who didn't vote for Griffey are wrong. But thats a whole different story. There is no debate about Griffey where there is clearly one that could be had about Raines.
Do me a favor Mike. Just give me your best argument for Raines. We've gotten off on a tangent talking about a lot of other players and what not. Just lay out your case for Raines.