49 replies to this topic

[ChaosLex]

Probably not going to happen anytime soon. If ever!

Still, I'm just curious about your thoughts.

[JeremyStrain]

I'm actually COMPLETELY against it, because this area as a whole can BARELY support one team, if you add another it will hurt both (see Nationals/Orioles attendance). The only sport that I think can survive two teams is pro football.

[Chris B]

Well, I'm definitely not supporting the one in DC, so absolutely.

[Don Quixote]

I'm actually COMPLETELY against it, because this area as a whole can BARELY support one team, if you add another it will hurt both (see Nationals/Orioles attendance).

I'd agree with this. Even several years post-lockout, I'm not certain that the NHL has returned to the relative prominence it once enjoyed. I still don't watch as much as I did before, and that's with the Capitals being more successful than before. Also, what of lean times for a team? It's so easy for support to evaporate when a team's not doing well. I've seen it with the Caps many times when they've gone through down periods. How about for a relocated or expansion team in the major sport where team holds are among the most tenuous? I just don't think it can be done.

[JeremyStrain]

I mean it's fine if you don't want to support the most local team you have just because it's in DC and not Bmore, but that attitude is what is ruining sports around here in general. The Ravens fans that HATE the Redskins even though they were Redskins fans in the 90s. The Nats fans that HATE the O's for whatever stupid reason. It's all STUPID to me and kinda makes me sick honestly. You live 40 minutes away from that team, they are in separate leagues and you rarely play each other, it wouldn't kill you to at least be neutral to them.

Sorry...rant over.

Back to the point. The Caps are getting by solely on bandwagon fans right now, and when they start buying Redskins and Nats tix again, they will be back to barely supporting a team. There is NO WAY you can put a 2nd franchise that close and have either one compete, so for not having TWO terrible hockey teams around I would NEVER support a 2nd hockey team here (and to a lesser degree basketball too, but I don't care much about them).

We are one metro area, not two completely different cities. We share the same suburbs, I don't know why people insist on making things Wash vs. Bmore.

[NewMarketSean]

I don't either, but the cities at their core stand for -- or used to stand for -- completely different ideologies. Baltimore is/was a blue-collar town...Washington was always the government and their contractor businesses.

I think it's not as drastic as it once was, but there is definitely a difference between the two cities which causes people to dislike the other. I can appreciate both cities for what they are and actually root for DC teams but it will never be anything like rooting for Baltimore teams.

I doubt NHL hockey will ever exist or succeed in Baltimore but that wouldn't stop me from rooting like hell for the team if they ever came to Baltimore.

[Chris B]

I mean it's fine if you don't want to support the most local team you have just because it's in DC and not Bmore, but that attitude is what is ruining sports around here in general. The Ravens fans that HATE the Redskins even though they were Redskins fans in the 90s. The Nats fans that HATE the O's for whatever stupid reason. It's all STUPID to me and kinda makes me sick honestly. You live 40 minutes away from that team, they are in separate leagues and you rarely play each other, it wouldn't kill you to at least be neutral to them.

Sorry...rant over.

Back to the point. The Caps are getting by solely on bandwagon fans right now, and when they start buying Redskins and Nats tix again, they will be back to barely supporting a team. There is NO WAY you can put a 2nd franchise that close and have either one compete, so for not having TWO terrible hockey teams around I would NEVER support a 2nd hockey team here (and to a lesser degree basketball too, but I don't care much about them).

We are one metro area, not two completely different cities. We share the same suburbs, I don't know why people insist on making things Wash vs. Bmore.

I'm pretty sure the your first paragraph was in response to me, so here goes...

Frankly, I don't really care about the Redskins at all. In my lifetime, they've been so inferior to the Ravens in performance so they've become more of an after-thought. In fact, personally, I like to root for them over their NFC East counterparts. The only time I really go on an anti-Skins tirade is during the week leading up to the Ravens-Redskins game once every 4 years.

I don't like the Nats. Not sure why because this is the first year they've been relevant, but I still don't like them (or their park, their marketing strategies, etc.). I root for the Wizards solely because of Jordan Crawford, former Xavier standout.

In regards to the Caps, like you mentioned, I actually solely hate them BECAUSE of them having so many bandwagon fans. Call me a hipster, but I just hate uninformed sports fans, and the Caps have developed a lot of them (a lot from Baltimore, in fact) in the past few years.

I disagree with you that it's basically one city. While it is one metro area, like NMS said, they actually are two completely different cities. You don't see Mets/Jets fans rooting for Giants/Yankees fans just because they are in the same city.

Regardless, I don't think you see an NHL franchise in Baltimore for awhile, if not ever. Leonsis will try to block it, as he should. He would lose a lot of Caps fans to the Baltimore franchise. But if for some magic reason they did make a team, I would definitely become a hockey fan and a big supporter of the Baltimore franchise.

[Oriole85]

First of all, before you ever would get a hockey team, you would need a new arena. I doubt the NHL would even play at 1st Mariner in it's current situation as even a temporary solution (yes, they'll play a one-game exhibition when they feel it's necessary). Second, not sure if this is true and I've mentioned this before, but the NHL apparently has some 75 mile radius rule preventing new teams entering existing NHL markets. Could Leonsis work-out a reverse MASN-like deal?, in theory, sure.

I talked to Drew Forrester (WNST) via Twitter some months as he was promoting the arena proposal and he basically dismissed the notion of a hockey team ever coming to Baltimore, pointing to corporate support.

I think initially like anything else it would get a nice honeymoon period. How much support would they get in their 5th season or so, if it's an average product on the ice? The unknown is exactly how much would they take away from the Caps fanbase? I assume like DC baseball fans, a good chunck are only supporting the Caps because they are the de facto option. I'm also sure if the Caps have success, many won't switch. The big unknown is how many who don't currently support the Caps because it's a "DC team" would support hockey in Baltimore? They might not exactly be hockey fans but they'll support a Baltimore sports team because of civic pride like many other cities support their sports teams.

Ultimately I don't see this happening. But you never want to say never.

[NewMarketSean]

If Baltimore ever builds an arena you will see the Caps play a handful of games there. Shoot, maybe the Wizards too.

Leonsis isn't going to allow a team to come to Baltimore, as he shouldn't, since there are a lot of Baltimore-based Caps fans right now.

He could do a lot of cool things to keep those fans and gain new ones, like using throwback Skipjacks uniforms or Bullets throwbacks for the Wizards if they played games in Baltimore.

That is about as good as it's gonna get for the NHL or NBA in Baltimore, IMO.

[Oriole85]

I mean it's fine if you don't want to support the most local team you have just because it's in DC and not Bmore, but that attitude is what is ruining sports around here in general. The Ravens fans that HATE the Redskins even though they were Redskins fans in the 90s. The Nats fans that HATE the O's for whatever stupid reason. It's all STUPID to me and kinda makes me sick honestly. You live 40 minutes away from that team, they are in separate leagues and you rarely play each other, it wouldn't kill you to at least be neutral to them.

Sorry...rant over.

Back to the point. The Caps are getting by solely on bandwagon fans right now, and when they start buying Redskins and Nats tix again, they will be back to barely supporting a team. There is NO WAY you can put a 2nd franchise that close and have either one compete, so for not having TWO terrible hockey teams around I would NEVER support a 2nd hockey team here (and to a lesser degree basketball too, but I don't care much about them).

We are one metro area, not two completely different cities. We share the same suburbs, I don't know why people insist on making things Wash vs. Bmore.

I agree with your premise that hockey teams in both Baltimore and DC wouldn't work out and most likely would cripple both franchises. Although, I think the Orioles were more hurt by putting a baseball team in DC than the Caps would be hurt by putting a hockey team in Baltimore.

I don't agree at all on the same metro area argument. First, Baltimore and Washington are two DISTINCTLY separate markets, they are in the same region but it's not like the Bay area or LA/Anaheim, which are the same media markets. I don't think they exactly share the same suburbs, sure there's fringe areas but does anyone think Owings Mills reperesents DC or Arlington represents Baltimore? Many in Baltimore still insist, they could never bring themselves to root for the Caps because they reside in DC and it was ditto with people in DC even pre-Angelos regarding the Orioles.

I think there's always going to be a pseudo Beltway rivalry, whose citizens just won't like the "other" close-by team, that's just part of life. It's not NY/Boston or SF/LA and never will be. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know what's at the root of the hate for Nats fans, it's the fact Angelos blocked(and continued to try to block) a baseball team in DC and then got Selig&co to give him their TV rights and kept them largely off the air for two seasons. Same was true with Jack Kent Cooke trying to block a Baltimore team (although not as publicly), which is why many Ravens fans still hate the Redskins.

Back to Nats/Orioles since they are playing each other this weekend. With the future for the Nats looking up, the fans taken up their hatred of the Orioles to a new level IMO and gotten a lot more cocky. I've noticed more O's fans starting to resent the Nats because of this.

[JeremyStrain]

I'm pretty sure the your first paragraph was in response to me, so here goes...

Frankly, I don't really care about the Redskins at all. In my lifetime, they've been so inferior to the Ravens in performance so they've become more of an after-thought. In fact, personally, I like to root for them over their NFC East counterparts. The only time I really go on an anti-Skins tirade is during the week leading up to the Ravens-Redskins game once every 4 years.

I don't like the Nats. Not sure why because this is the first year they've been relevant, but I still don't like them (or their park, their marketing strategies, etc.). I root for the Wizards solely because of Jordan Crawford, former Xavier standout.

In regards to the Caps, like you mentioned, I actually solely hate them BECAUSE of them having so many bandwagon fans. Call me a hipster, but I just hate uninformed sports fans, and the Caps have developed a lot of them (a lot from Baltimore, in fact) in the past few years.

I disagree with you that it's basically one city. While it is one metro area, like NMS said, they actually are two completely different cities. You don't see Mets/Jets fans rooting for Giants/Yankees fans just because they are in the same city.

Regardless, I don't think you see an NHL franchise in Baltimore for awhile, if not ever. Leonsis will try to block it, as he should. He would lose a lot of Caps fans to the Baltimore franchise. But if for some magic reason they did make a team, I would definitely become a hockey fan and a big supporter of the Baltimore franchise.

Nah, not at you, just a rant in general, I whine about it all the time. I came up when the baseball team was in Baltimore, the football team in DC and the Basketball and Hockey teams were in Maryland.

This divide started with the Ravens, and got worse with the Nationals. As someone loyal to the teams before the new additions I have no ill will towards the new teams and root for them when not at the expense of my teams. I notice though that a lot of the younger fans especially not only aren't neutral but have a disdain for the other local teams that rivals PHI "hospitality". It drives me crazy that they can root for one team and LOATHE another team 30 miles away.

A good chunk of those PITA fans started cheering for the Ravens because they were good, and the Redskins were bad. Ok, but don't be a d-bag about hating on the Redskins.

(and this is not directed towards everyone, I know that some manage to at least maintain neutrality, and that's really all I ask). TONS of areas in this country don't have their FIRST team within 45 miles, let alone a 2nd, they shouldn't look a gift horse in the mouth.

And to the point of Mets/Yankees fan, sure they might pick one over the other, but they don't HATE the one that they don't choose.

[DuffMan]

I've cheered/rooted for the Caps my whole life, I don't want'/need an NHL team in Baltimore. Now if we could get an AHL team back downtown I'd be all over that. Loved going to Skipjack and Bandits games back in the day.

[Chris B]

Do Orioles and Nationals fans hate each other? I honestly don't know...my impression (since DC got the Nats) was that Nats fans loathe the Orioles because Peter Angelos tried to block a team from returning to the nation's capital (even though a lot of those same fans were Orioles fans at one point in time). Just judging from my friends, none of us hate the Nats. We just enjoy beating up on them. I think of it more as a sibling rivalry.

I do agree with you on the Skins/Ravens argument, though. Just as it is with the inferiority complex, a lot of Ravens fans dislike the Redskins. Maybe because of all those years without the Colts and the Skins playing well in the 80s and 90s led to that. (But even still, the Ravens have been the better overall franchise for about a decade now.) I can't really explain the football one.

As for the Yanks/Mets example that I brought up, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't see any Mets fans pulling for the Yankees ever. Maybe during interleague play when the East teams face each other, but that's about it.

[JeremyStrain]

I've cheered/rooted for the Caps my whole life, I don't want'/need an NHL team in Baltimore. Now if we could get an AHL team back downtown I'd be all over that. Loved going to Skipjack and Bandits games back in the day.

Yeah this is what I've been pushing for too. Move the AHL back to Bmore, and change Hershey to BMore as an affiliate. HEAVEN.

Do Orioles and Nationals fans hate each other? I honestly don't know...my impression (since DC got the Nats) was that Nats fans loathe the Orioles because Peter Angelos tried to block a team from returning to the nation's capital (even though a lot of those same fans were Orioles fans at one point in time). Just judging from my friends, none of us hate the Nats. We just enjoy beating up on them. I think of it more as a sibling rivalry.

I do agree with you on the Skins/Ravens argument, though. Just as it is with the inferiority complex, a lot of Ravens fans dislike the Redskins. Maybe because of all those years without the Colts and the Skins playing well in the 80s and 90s led to that. (But even still, the Ravens have been the better overall franchise for about a decade now.) I can't really explain the football one.

As for the Yanks/Mets example that I brought up, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't see any Mets fans pulling for the Yankees ever. Maybe during interleague play when the East teams face each other, but that's about it.

It's just starting to get there, I've noticed a lot of it in the past couple months. 5 years ago when you went to the O's/Nats series they'd hope for good baseball and you'd get cheers on both sides a little bit, now you get boos.

[Chris B]

Yeah this is what I've been pushing for too. Move the AHL back to Bmore, and change Hershey to BMore as an affiliate. HEAVEN.



It's just starting to get there, I've noticed a lot of it in the past couple months. 5 years ago when you went to the O's/Nats series they'd hope for good baseball and you'd get cheers on both sides a little bit, now you get boos.

Fair enough. I wasn't able to make it down to DC for the series this year, and I can't remember the last time I was at OPACY for a Nats game. As for the AHL move, that would be great, and I think it's very possible*. Maybe the Flyers could move their AHL affiliate (currently in Glen Falls, NY) to Hershey since that franchise has been there for so long.

*if the city ever builds this damn arena

[Pedro Cerrano]

And to the point of Mets/Yankees fan, sure they might pick one over the other, but they don't HATE the one that they don't choose.

You don't know many Mets fans, do you?

[JeremyStrain]

You don't know many Mets fans, do you?

A ton of them actually. They tend to feel about the Yanks like Ravens fans feel about the Eagles.

[BSLMikeLowe]

The disdain Baltimore has/had for DC and the Redskins predates the Ravens, JKC's objections to Baltimore's efforts to win an expansion team in the early 90's, and even Baltimore being force-fed Redskins games on TV after the Colts left. It goes back to when the Baltimore Colts of the All-American Football Conference were supposed to be merged into the NFL. Then-Redskins owner George Preston Marshall objected, for the same reason any owner of a team in one city objects to a team taking up residence in the other. Marhsall eventually relented after being paid compensation. When the original Colts team folded after the 1950 season and the Dallas Texans wanted to relocate to Baltimore in 1953, Marshall again objected. This time he relented after insisting that the Colts remain in the NFL's Western Division (where they played in Dallas). This obviously made for a more challenging road schedule for the Colts, since they were travelling annually to the west coast. Many Baltimore fans never forgot that.

Also, a compensation deal for the Senators was arranged when Jerold Hoffberger brought the Orioles to Baltimore in 1954. It involved Hoffberger purchasing advertising with the Senators for his brewery.

While the stakes have gotten larger over the years (MASN, and JKC getting local infrastructure improvements rubber-stamped by the state for his stadium) pro sports franchises wanting to protect their territory is nothing new.

[Don Quixote]

Highly unlikely Baltimore could even get AHL unless a new arena is built. However, the ECHL's South Carolina Stingrays could be poached from Charleston, I think. They're the Caps' and Bears' ECHL affiliate (unlike many ECHL teams, the Stingrays are only affiliated with one NHL team), and attendance is way down. Attendance has dropped 35% over the last three years (5,001 to 3,251, most of that drop occurring in the last two years), and over 60% down from their inaugural season in 1993-94 (9,151 average attendance then). Historically the attendance has been a long gradual decline, even though the team has had a winning record for all of its 19 seasons and won three league championships. ECHL might be a possibility under current arena conditions, but I think many Baltimoreans may scoff at the idea of a "double-A" squad as opposed to "triple-A." Even so, I think they could beat the current attendance in Charleston, and the Caps' spatial organizational umbrella would constrict quite nicely.

Due to the current equilibrium concerning AHL/NHL affiliation as well as number of teams per division, Baltimore probably won't get a team unless a team decides to relocate and the AHL wants to again take up realignment, if necessary, in addition to the arena concerns. The Bears have been a Flyers affiliate in the past, so affiliate shifting could be a possibility. However, the Washington-Hershey relationship is probably solid. The big club has had success, the Bears even more, and the Bears have had the AHL regular-season high attendance mark for six seasons running. I think there's still a tough row to hoe as far as any professional hockey soon being in Baltimore. The poaching of the Stingrays would probably be the best bet for those desiring a quick hometown hockey fix.

[You Play to Win the Game]

I would not support a hockey team. I'm not switching from the Caps.

BTW, I could t agree more with AS about the stupid DC/BMore thing. As a Ravens and O's fan, I have no ill will towards the Skins or Nats, and as a Wizards/Caps fan, I would have no ill will towards any NHL or NBA team in Baltimore.