260 replies to this topic

[Mackus]

Is golf a sport or a skill?

Skill.

I also don't consider track & field, swimming, gymnastics, skiing/snowboarding, and some others to be "sports". In my opinion, a sport must have an offense and a defense, or similar analogs. All those are things are "athletic competitions".

Completely semantics, though.

[VTM213]

My opinion on the subject is no. I'm sure some NASCAR drivers are good athletes, but that has nothing to do with them driving a car for 3 hours (or however long a race lasts).

I think that almost anybody, given a sufficient time to train, could do what they do. The most common response as to why what they do is hard has been ... losing 7-10 lbs during a race. Losing 7-10 lbs in a session? A lot of people used to lose that during 2-a-days back in high school playing football. I would lose 10+ lbs every long run while I trained for the marathon. Sitting in a car sweating doesn't take any intrinsic skill. Do you think LeBron James, if given a year to learn how to race, could be competitive? I do. I think just about any athlete from the 'big' sports could handle NASCAR if given enough training.

On the other hand, I think the vast majority of NASCAR racers would fail in the NFL/MLB/NBA/etc, regardless of how long they were given to train. How many failed prospects do we see in baseball every year? And these are kids that have spent years honing their craft.

Then again, I'm not a fan of NASCAR at all, so it's entirely possible that my thinking it takes just about zero skill to race is purely subjective

[Mackus]

On the other hand, I think the vast majority of NASCAR racers would fail in the NFL/MLB/NBA/etc, regardless of how long they were given to train. How many failed prospects do we see in baseball every year? And these are kids that have spent years honing their craft.

While I agree with your final opinion, I don't really think the basis you used is very telling. I agree that almost every NASCAR driver would fail in the NBA or MLB or NFL. But, almost every single MLB player would fail in the NBA or NFL. Almost every single NFL player would fail in the NBA or MLB. Almost every single NBA player would fail in the MLB or NFL. There are a few famous crossover guys (Bo Jackson, Deion Sanders, Brian Jordan, Mark Hendrickson), but most players on average wouldn't be able to make a switch, even with lots of time to train. They could compete at lower levels, lot's of NFL guys were decent college basketball players, for example, but to get to the highest level takes more than just supreme athleticism and years of practice. Each major sport highlights slightly different aspects of athleticism, so the pros are fairly optimized for the sport they play.

[SammyBirdland]

I think I could come close to tying Tony Stewart in a 500 yard dash.

[SBTarheel]

My opinion on the subject is no. I'm sure some NASCAR drivers are good athletes, but that has nothing to do with them driving a car for 3 hours (or however long a race lasts).

I think that almost anybody, given a sufficient time to train, could do what they do. The most common response as to why what they do is hard has been ... losing 7-10 lbs during a race. Losing 7-10 lbs in a session? A lot of people used to lose that during 2-a-days back in high school playing football. I would lose 10+ lbs every long run while I trained for the marathon. Sitting in a car sweating doesn't take any intrinsic skill. Do you think LeBron James, if given a year to learn how to race, could be competitive? I do. I think just about any athlete from the 'big' sports could handle NASCAR if given enough training.

On the other hand, I think the vast majority of NASCAR racers would fail in the NFL/MLB/NBA/etc, regardless of how long they were given to train. How many failed prospects do we see in baseball every year? And these are kids that have spent years honing their craft.

Then again, I'm not a fan of NASCAR at all, so it's entirely possible that my thinking it takes just about zero skill to race is purely subjective ;)

This is absolutely true in my opinion.

I believe this because I felt that way for years. Until I learned about NASCAR and became a fan.

[RShack]

Well, those who say "no" seem to put forth answers that fall into 1 of 2 categories:

1. "I don't think they're athletes because I don't think they're athletes."

2. Misguided, erroneous statements which mostly boil down to "being a top-level racing driver does not require enough". (Enough of what?)

If you say "no", you should have an Actual Reason... not one that's just a tautology or one based on a falsehood.

ps: I'm not saying the falsehoods are intentional, I don't think they are, I just think lotsa people don't grok what's involved.

pps: To be fair, my point of reference is F1. I am quite sure that it requires the most athleticism. It also requires little guys, just to fit in the dang cars. Most of them are little guys with neck muscles like Ray Lewis. I don't see how there can be any claim that F1 drivers are not athletes. NASCAR drivers I'm not so sure about. I imagine there is more of range there than in F1. But, you could say the same thing about baseball, really. How much of an athlete is Matt Albers? How much of an athlete is a big fat slugger?

ppps: F1 guys did not have to be little back when Dan Gurney was one. But now they do. Most of them are something like 5'6". Here's a video that gives a hint about how-and-why an F1 driver has to be little these days: towards the end, they put a driver in the car so you can see how tight it is. If you look closely, there's not even room for his running shoes. Wn1EFLa2C8

[Oriole85]

I'm probably a bit biased in this since I hate auto-car racing and it's one of those, very not my cup of tea. In fact, I don't understand the thrill of it so much of it. I wouldn't want to watch cars going at 100 MPH over a bridge on 95.

I don't consider them athletes, I do think they are competitors. But we could have the same debate with gymnastics, figure skating, diving on how much of it is an art versus sport(you might remember my "judge" based arguments with the boxing thread). Also, I don't think it's a stretch to question the athletics ability of golfers when drinking, smoking, etc is acceptable with the play. Or how about the Spelling Bee, they appear on ESPN, are they athletes?

Great debate...

[SammyBirdland]

If NASCAR racing is an athletic event, it is one of the few where men and women compete against each other as individual competitors. What are the others? Golf...horse racing...the Iditarod...

[RShack]

If NASCAR racing is an athletic event, it is one of the few where men and women compete against each other as individual competitors. What are the others? Golf...horse racing...the Iditarod...

You do have a good point. However, it would be a better point if a woman was among the top contenders. In Indycar and NASCAR, there have been woman drivers, but never one that was a serious challenger. They get press way, way beyond what their performance deserves.

Let's fact it, the main reason Danica gets so much attention is because her sponsors can get her to exploit her Babe Factor in a way that generally makes her want to throw up... but she does it because that's what gets her the ride. She might hate it, but she's no dummy.

ps: Not saying women cannot be excellent performers, just saying they haven't been yet.

[NewMarketSean]

I said no but I could go either way.

I think it definitely takes a lot of skill.

[Oriole85]

If NASCAR racing is an athletic event, it is one of the few where men and women compete against each other as individual competitors. What are the others? Golf...horse racing...the Iditarod...

Horse Racing and The Iditarod(is that true?) are the only others where men and women are on the same playing field professionally speaking. Even golf, which I think gender is less of a role than say basketball or soccer has separate tees and women do compete separately (although they can play with the boys). Not a big golfer(or fan), but one of things I like about it is how the average Joe can beat Tiger Woods on one hole (Par 3, hole-in-one - can happen other ways I know). Only other comparison it seems is hitting free throws at a more consistent rate than Shaq.

[SammyBirdland]

If NASCAR racing is an athletic event, it is one of the few where men and women compete against each other as individual competitors. What are the others? Golf...horse racing...the Iditarod...

Forgot about Manon Rheaume

[Oriole85]

You do have a good point. However, it would be a better point if a woman was among the top contenders. In Indycar and NASCAR, there have been woman drivers, but never one that was a serious challenger. They get press way, way beyond what their performance deserves.

Let's fact it, the main reason Danica gets so much attention is because her sponsors can get her to exploit her Babe Factor in a way that generally makes her want to throw up... but she does it because that's what gets her the ride. She might hate it, but she's no dummy.

ps: Not saying women cannot be excellent performers, just saying they haven't been yet.

Happens way more with female athletes than male athletes, I guess Tebow is an exception to that. Anna Kornkouvila?

[RShack]

Happens way more with female athletes than male athletes, I guess Tebow is an exception to that. Anna Kornkouvila?

This is true.

At the same time, nobody in their right mind would say that the Williams sisters are not top-tier athletes...

[Bosibus]

I did a "ride-along" at Daytona in February for 3 laps. It was awesome, but I still would not call it a sport. Would love to drive but it was like $1,000+ so decided against it.

[lordbrook]

I've had this same debate several times with guys I work with because they do the fantasy nascar stuff and I just can't refrain from asking them if their sisters are happy they are now taking Viagra. Needless to say, I'm not a fan, but that doesn't preclude me from trying to make an objective observation. I think that athletic ability is inversely related to the amount of equipment they need to display their ability. Therefore for me the purest athletes would be say, gymnasts and greco roman wrestlers, with the least pure athletes being Nascar drivers and golfers.

[mweb08]

Well, those who say "no" seem to put forth answers that fall into 1 of 2 categories:

1. "I don't think they're athletes because I don't think they're athletes."

2. Misguided, erroneous statements which mostly boil down to "being a top-level racing driver does not require enough". (Enough of what?)

If you say "no", you should have an Actual Reason... not one that's just a tautology or one based on a falsehood.

ps: I'm not saying the falsehoods are intentional, I don't think they are, I just think lotsa people don't grok what's involved.

I shouldn't do this because I really don't want to get involved with you and I said I wouldn't, but I just want to say that you should take the advice you gave me and maybe be a little more self-aware of how posts like this come off. Of course you probably won't see it this way, but this post imo is disrespectful/being dismissive of everyone who has posted no in this thread and is not encouraging further discussion.

[RShack]

I shouldn't do this because I really don't want to get involved with you and I said I wouldn't, but I just want to say that you should take the advice you gave me and maybe be a little more self-aware of how posts like this come off. Of course you probably won't see it this way, but this post imo is disrespectful/being dismissive of everyone who has posted no in this thread and is not encouraging further discussion.

I want to make sure you know that I am not ignoring what you say.

In the matter at hand, I clearly said that I don't think those who have reached conclusions based on wrong assumptions mean to do that. I really do think that some folks have said things based on not really grokking how hard it is to be a top racing driver. I also think that a tautology is a tautology. (See what I did there? ) And, to the larger question, I do not think that every opinion is equally valid. Some opinions are better informed than others.

I do understand that I rub some people the wrong way. I do understand that part of that is indeed me. But I also think that some of that is because I do not think all opinions are equally valid. I think it is fair to discount opinions that are based on either misinformation or tautologies. And, to be fair about it, I did not call anybody a moron or dismiss what anybody says based on who they are. Rather, I explicitly asked folks who said "no" to provide reasons that are not tautologies. For those who said that being a racing driver does not require enough of something, I asked for folks to say what that something is.

So, bottom line: I asked those who said "no" to tell me more, not less. I don't see how that's being dick. If you can help me understand how it is being a dick, I will appreciate it.

[mweb08]

It's not worth it. It's just interesting that you lectured me given how you post.

[RShack]

It's not worth it. It's just interesting that you lectured me given how you post.

Look, I flat out asked you to help me understand how I misperceive things. I can believe that I do, but I need help to be able to see it. And I very explicitly asked you for that... which you promptly blew off.

So, what were you doing just now? You just wanted to get in a jab and then refuse to discuss it? And you wanna make it sound like your behavior is my fault?

As for me "lecturing" you, the thing I said was that it's not good to include comments in every post about how you're gonna take your ball and go home. Which is what you seem to be doing again...